The Eternal War: Human Nature

[Ladyzekke]

Originally posted by Suzaku: Humans are just like any other animal. 1. We do what ever we can to survive. 2. We take advantage of the environment to live. 3. We warred off enemies that trespass on to our space. It's just that man has advanced to the point that we put these needs to the extreme. 1. We attack, kill, and destroy to survive. 2. We rape the land to live. 3. We are so paranoid that we build the most destructive weapons on earth to warred off enemies. We are merely apes with a higher consciousness. But this higher plane of thinking has caused us to forget that we are only apes and that we must behave in such a way to survive efficiently. We abuse our higher state of being to the point condemning the state in which we should live. The Yeti is not the missing link. We are. We are not the height of human evolution because we are so imperfect. Maybe the next step in evolution will have finally coped with it's mental faculties and realize it's predecessor's faults. In a sense, man has become to smart for itself. The animal part of our minds have yet to catch up with the rational part of our minds. Thus, we have become the child with his father rifle. So saying all this, how exactly *smart* are we? We still war with and kill each other for the past several millenia, with little or no change in how we act. Are we hopeless?!

Yes you are right, and you are also wrong. As just please remember, there are a lot of us humans living on this planet who are NOT like that. Many of us just live on this planet, and have no power, we just live, and don't harm others in order to do so either.

[The Hierophant]

What I would like you to clarify for me is just who 'we' is. we pollute the world. we kill each other. we do this, we do that. Blah blah blah ad nauseum.

WE may or may not do any of the supposedly negative things you have listed! Are you referring to the contributors of consumer culture? Nomadic Siberian/Mongol tribes? Alaskan innuits? Australian desert-aboriginals?

Personally, I have never killed another human being. I recycle as much of the reusable materials and tools that I utilize in my daily life. I conserve as much electricity and fossil fuel as possible. I own no deadly weapons of any sort and do not plan to in the future, I have no fear of my neightbours and enjoy getting to know them as much as possible.

The problem that I have with the argument you have put forth is that you grossly generalize all of the homo sapiens sapiens species into one self-destructive lump (could you say that the Dalai Lama shares the same view of the world as Britney Speares? Of course not). This sort of pessimism is simply not an accurate depiction of how things really are. True, there are some features of society that can be viewed as being detrimental to our environment as a whole, but these can be addressed. Have a little faith my boy and don't give up so easily. The world is a much more diverse (and a much tougher) place than you make it out to be.

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by MagiK: I presently live in Maryland, however in my life time I have lived in the following places. Pennsylvania twice for a total of 14 years or so, West Virginia twice for a total of 3 years, Minnesota for a year, Florida for 3 years (Orlando and Pensacola (twice)) Sabana Seca Puerto Rico for 3 years, Adak Alaska twice for a total of 30 months, Anchorage Alaska for 6 months, Winter Harbor Maine for 3 years, San Diego California for 3 years and then here to Maryland for the last 8.5 years (years and months are rough approximations) While all this moving around took place I did tours that took me to parts of South america, the South East Asia regions, all over the pacific, a few trips into the Med and Indian Ocean and quick hops to a few places inthe Middle east. So I feel comfortable stating that I have seen a fair percentage of the world. The pollution issues are exagerated to generate public interest and cash donation, yes there are problems but they are being addressed, at least int he west, Asia has some serious issues to address yet and so does the former Soviet Union but there is no reason to think that the world is about to collapse from our polluting it. Every year better and cheaper ways of cleaningup the messes that do exist are developed. I have seen Pennsylvania go from a coal sooted dirty disgusting place to being many times cleaner, the LA skyline is no where near as smoggy as it was in the 70's. I have seen the pristine Alaskan wilderness which is STILL there despite the wailing and yammeringof ecologists opposed to the Alaska Pipeline, I choose to see all sides of the aregument and not just the nay sayer and doom mongering sides. As I said Im not attacking you, just commenting on how I precieve your view point. You can call mine wishful thinking and ignorance if you like, but I know what I see and I remember the past. Hope this helps clear things up for you a bit.

Listen to Magik. He's been around as both a father and a soldier and knows what he's talking about.

[Suzaku]

Alrighty, I've calmed down abit from a somewhat good nights sleep. Now I can see things *freshly*. Let me restate exactly what my point is. First off, when I say "we", I mean the majority of the human population, seeing as how individuals don't always have the power necessary to change the world. As they say, "Let he that would move the world first move himself" . Anyway, I refer to we because that seems to be the prevailing attitude, either consciously or not, about how we go about our life. As a typical example about #1: if you were starving in a cell with another human, you do whatever you can to live, be it killing or whatever. If you are starving, you steal, kill, somehow try to live. Don't try to denounce this one.

#2: Let me give a classic example. I presume you shop at the local superstore for food supplies? Take meat. There is typically plastic packaging, preservative chemicals, refrigeration, and of course some form of meat inside, all some form of altered natural product. I'm not saying that you should eat cow raw (eck), just consider what we are taking from the environment. I just know that there are people out there that didn't know that porl came from pigs. Either way, we take advantage of the environment. What I don't like is the fact that we throw away the non-decomposable plastic, poison ourselves with the preservative chemicals, eject processed waste in some form of tiolet, which does not usually find its way back to the environment in some form acceptable, most likely with all the other materials gathered in some water sanitation plant. I won't bother this point much more.

#3: May I ask why people have fences on their property? We like to stake out *our* property, a classic thought from capitalism. I'll post later, I'm outa time right now.

Originally posted by The Hierophant: Listen to Magik. He's been around as both a father and a soldier and knows what he's talking about.

That would be Sailor Laddie Actually I was a sailor who was never attached to a ship, I spent a huge amount of time on P-3 Orions, and being ferried into and out of clandestine locations to fix classified communications equipment. (nearly all of which is now obsolete )

Originally posted by Suzaku: #2: Let me give a classic example. I presume you shop at the local superstore for food supplies? Take meat. There is typically plastic packaging, preservative chemicals, refrigeration, and of course some form of meat inside, all some form of altered natural product. I'm not saying that you should eat cow raw (eck), just consider what we are taking from the environment. I just know that there are people out there that didn't know that porl came from pigs. Either way, we take advantage of the environment. What I don't like is the fact that we throw away the non-decomposable plastic, poison ourselves with the preservative chemicals, eject processed waste in some form of tiolet, which does not usually find its way back to the environment in some form acceptable, most likely with all the other materials gathered in some water sanitation plant. I won't bother this point much more. You know "all nautral" is highly over rated. before modern food processing came into being, a good portion of the population suffered from food poisioning and many deaths were incurred. This still happens in 3rd world countries where their food is "all natural" and not processed. I will also point out that "all natural" spring water has had dead bugs in it, bird droppings plopped in it, and fishes pee in it. Yeah nature is wonderful Processed food, keeps us from being over run by bacteria, filtered/treated water prevents disease propagation. But you points ignore the benefits and only extol the negative side of things. #3: May I ask why people have fences on their property? We like to stake out *our* property, a classic thought from capitalism. I'll post later, I'm outa time right now.

The people I know that have fences in their yards for privacy. Boundry markers are for marking your claim, fences (in suburbs at any rate) are to provide just a little bit of privacy to a persons home. (They are frequently even labeled "privacy fences". In rural areas, Fences allow people to denote the ending of one farm from another and some times are used for controlling the movement of cattle or horses, or sheep....Can you see where I am getting the idea you only see the negative side of things?

Edit: Fences can also be decorative.

[ 11-07-2002, 11:07 AM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by MagiK: quote: You know "all nautral" is highly over rated. before modern food processing came into being, a good portion of the population suffered from food poisioning and many deaths were incurred. This still happens in 3rd world countries where their food is "all natural" and not processed. I will also point out that "all natural" spring water has had dead bugs in it, bird droppings plopped in it, and fishes pee in it. Yeah nature is wonderful Processed food, keeps us from being over run by bacteria, filtered/treated water prevents disease propagation. But you points ignore the benefits and only extol the negative side of things. Sorry, but I disagree. There's lots of online info regarding healthy organic farming, and I find that organic stuff tastes much better (it makes you notice how other things taste like chemicals) - when I can afford to pay more for it. The apples I pick off trees on farms are MUCH different than the ones in the store that are coated with that absolutely annoying wax (as most vegetables are these days). Plus, it's not like most of the stuff on our produce and meat is meant to make us healthy - it's a shelf-life thing, benefitting the companies and stores (not that it's easy to be a farmer or a grocer, mind you - I am fully aware grocers operate on a very thin 1% profit margin). I'd simply much rather stop and buy the fruits and veggies I see folks selling on the side of the road. As for the bacteria, etc. - very untrue. Most meat you get in a grocery is contaminated anyway. We simply cook it. In fact, no matter how hard you try, cooking is the only thing to effectively kill the worst bacterias and contaminations - e. coli, salmonella (spelling?), etc.

The people I know that have fences in their yards for privacy. Boundry markers are for marking your claim, fences (in suburbs at any rate) are to provide just a little bit of privacy to a persons home. (They are frequently even labeled "privacy fences". In rural areas, Fences allow people to denote the ending of one farm from another and some times are used for controlling the movement of cattle or horses, or sheep....Can you see where I am getting the idea you only see the negative side of things?
Edit: Fences can also be decorative.[/QB][/QUOTE]Good fences make good neighbors, for sure. But, doesn't that perhaps support some of the original condemnations about people? Decorative or not, they're quite obvious from the air, and the macro-view patchwork quilt we've created of the world does sometimes depress me. I'll quote Jim: What have we done to the Earth? What have we done to our fair sister? Fenced her and roped her and dragged her down.

Sorry... was I [img]graemlins/bonghit.gif[/img] again? [img]graemlins/hippysmile.gif[/img]

Edited for quotation markers.

[ 11-07-2002, 01:15 PM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

Actually, a lot of that patchwork you see is done to minimize errosion. Nature isn't all one nice comfy thing. nature is cold, harsh, unforgiving and deadly. To deny mans role in mitigating the harshness of nature and only comment on his destructive actions is to be presented with only half the picture.

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Sorry, but I disagree. There's lots of online info regarding healthy organic farming, and I find that organic stuff tastes much better (it makes you notice how other things taste like chemicals) - when I can afford to pay more for it. The apples I pick off trees on farms are MUCH different than the ones in the store that are coated with that absolutely annoying wax (as most vegetables are these days). Plus, it's not like most of the stuff on our produce and meat is meant to make us healthy - it's a shelf-life thing, benefitting the companies and stores (not that it's easy to be a farmer or a grocer, mind you - I am fully aware grocers operate on a very thin 1% profit margin). I'd simply much rather stop and buy the fruits and veggies I see folks selling on the side of the road. Don't suppose you noticed the cost differential for the "organic" stuff? I don't suppose you take into account the much much lower crop yields for the "orgainicly grown" produce? Or how about the shelf life of that produce? Or the amount of bugs you get in the bag when you buy that produce? I don't live in a hole in the ground,. I have tried the "organic" stores. They are more hype than anything (in my opinion) just as it is your opinion about how something tastes. Taste, smell and appearence all subjective qualities at best. As for the bacteria, etc. - very untrue. Most meat you get in a grocery is contaminated anyway. We simply cook it. In fact, no matter how hard you try, cooking is the only thing to effectively kill the worst bacterias and contaminations - e. coli, salmonella (spelling?), etc. You don't even want to know whats on the meat that gets slaughtered in an all natural way on a small single family farm. Im telling you have NO idea what it would be like if we did not use modern methods of sterilization and preservation. All you have to do is look at the comparative food poisoning deaths here and in ohhhh say India. And E. Coli is NATURAL. You have it in and on you right this very minute, so does every other living mammal. Cooking is a very good way to clean up the food, but if we did not use modern methods vast quantities of food would go to waste before it could ever be brought to market. I have mentioned before that Im taking a history class about the early colonization of the US up untill reconstruction. It is very very apparent that our food handeling techniques are saving millions of lives compared to "all Natural" methods. Good fences make good neighbors, for sure. But, doesn't that perhaps support some of the original condemnations about people? Decorative or not, they're quite obvious from the air, and the macro-view patchwork quilt we've created of the world does sometimes depress me. I'll quote Jim: What have we done to the Earth? What have we done to our fair sister? Fenced her and roped her and dragged her down. Sorry... was I [img]graemlins/bonghit.gif[/img] again? [img]graemlins/hippysmile.gif[/img] Edited for quotation markers.

What is wrong with fences? You make it sound like they are a declaration of war or something sheesh

[Timber Loftis]

Well, Messrs. Muppets, I knew if I waited you would actually address all of my points.

Organic farming is a viable alternative. Yes, there are cost issues, as I mentioned in my reply - I usually do a calculus and only buy organic if it's 150% or less of the non-organic costs. Generally, I don't think you can argue with the notion that doing something cheaply is not always the best way. Rather than address your assertions vs. mine as to organic farming, especially since you never buy anything I say until I back it up anyway, I'll simply point you to:
http://www.enn.com/news/enn-stories/...02/s_47452.asp
and also:
http://www.organic-research.org/
(Note this excerpt half-way down the page:
Paul Mäder and colleagues of the Swiss Research Institute of Organic Agriculture FiBL compared plots of cropland grown according to organic and conventional methods, and concluded that the organic systems were able to produce more with less energy and fewer resources. The soil in the organic plots was more fertile, and was home to more abundant and more diverse groups of organisms, the authors report.)

As for fences, I think they're fine. I must admit I liked it more when I lived in a rural mountainous area and trees served for my property markers, though. Like all things, there are pluses and minuses to both sides, and I think you're drawing bright lines here that don't exist.