Great Stock Tip

[antryg]

Don't blame DoD for all the wasted money in military buying. Sometimes the President or Congress mandate weapon systems or buying procedures that the military don't want or need. An example would be the Ospry. This is a plane that has no military mission, has been in development for 20+ years, and still suffers from mysterious crashes that kill our own troops. Another example is the use of pork barrel procrument practices. If the Navy want 4 new destroyers they get built in 4 different ports. Tooling up costs double what the Navy pays and actually makes it longer (timewise) before all 4 ships are finished. The result is 4 happy congressmen and constituants and wasted tax dollars (unless you are one of the people that got a job using the most ineffecient method). Remember: Government spending is only wasteful when it doesn't line your own pocket. As it says over the entrance to the law school at SMU Carpe Dinaro. (Sieze the Money)

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: A. I only asked if unneccesary spending bothered anyone - I didn't point to any specific spending I saw as unneccesary. I will say that the DoD should not simply be given a blank check. Do you think there has ever been unneccesary spending? Would it bother you if there was? My mistake, then It appeared to me that you were asserting that you knew some particular "waste" was taking place. And to be totaly frank about it, I would be upset about waste, HOWEVER, Id be more worried at the far larger excesses and wastages taking place in the non-military (and much larger and far more expensive) part of our National Government. B. I represent lots of government contractors. You've accused me of not knowing didly about defense spending before, and it's time I point this out. I know a lot more than you think I do about the Federal Acquisition Regulations and how strict the government is regarding its contractors. Quit attacking me and stick to the topic, if you don't mind. I make/made no accusation of you, Im using things that you have said in our past discussions. I agree some (if not all) contractors do pad the bill, what I also know and you may not, is that they pad the bills here and there and then have to cover many things out of their own pockets that really were failures of the government beaureaucrats and not the contractors. Things are rarely as simple as they seem. If you aren't intimately involved you can't know the complexities behind the scenes. Which is why people who ARE expert on military matters usually run things rather than just any old vendor off the street. It wasn't an attack, at least no more than your jumping on the "1st ammendment vs courtesy" comments. I was on topic, I wanted to know how you were determinng what was and was not "waste" which is what your topic was about. Is that so awful?

I don't see a problemw ith 355 Billion dollars on defense. Especially since its such a small percentage of the entire budget. Of course some people will disagree and say we don't need a military at all. But the article you posted withthis number doesnt prove any waste or even what the break down on where the money is being allocated.

I do know our service men and women are asking for a 4% pay increase, I think they deserve it, its not like they are lavishly over paid or have the golden retirment deals that congress gets.

[antryg]

I agree with Magik that our servicemen and women deserve a pay raise. Like anywhere else the better the pay the better quality people will stay.

[Timber Loftis]

Antryg, using the DoD as a catch-all term was a faux pas on my part - what I meant was "the military." As for the Congress, they approve the blank checks - and, yes, sometimes they are particular about where and how the money will be spent. All of which can be monkeyed with by the OMB. Four destroyers being built in four separate cities (in NC) is obviously attributable to one long-term Senator who loves to eat his bag of military pork barrels every morning, if I recall correctly.

$355 billion increase too much? Dunno. I just saw a relevant article and posted it. I have no clue what it's all being spent on and if it's worth it. Check out the bill links to thomas.loc.gov at the bottom of the article if you're interested in the specifics.

Pay raises for armed services? I dunno. Look, I have tons of friends and family members who are vets, and I almost signed up at that time in my life. I have TONS of respect for the service. But, I have heard a lot of my military friends say that it *can* be the worst form of welfare in some cases. Before you flame me, check out what I mean. Good service will get you quite far in the military, but it is demanding. However, if you are predisposed to laziness and are happy being a career buck private, you can (from what I'm told) basically sit on your ass all day without fear of losing a job. Is this true? I admit, I'm not personally knowledgible on it.

However, I do note that the armed forces is one of the better middle income careers out there today, with great benefits for you and your family and a great pension. There are plenty of sectors with underpaid overworked folks. While maintaining every respect and decorum regarding our fine men and women in uniform, I would say I don't have the facts to know about the need to raise their pay.

Cheers all. [img]graemlins/cheers.gif[/img]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Antryg, using the DoD as a catch-all term was a faux pas on my part - what I meant was "the military." As for the Congress, they approve the blank checks - and, yes, sometimes they are particular about where and how the money will be spent. All of which can be monkeyed with by the OMB. Four destroyers being built in four separate cities (in NC) is obviously attributable to one long-term Senator who loves to eat his bag of military pork barrels every morning, if I recall correctly. Ok, Im really really not trying to be antagonistic here. I agree that that prticular senetor is not beyond the pork barrel spending, but there are some other issues to be considered. Ship building is not your run of the mill toaster oven manufacture. It takes a lot to build a ship and you have to spread the contracts around to maintain your industriel base so that you actually have the capability to produce these very large and very expensive items. Not only is the industriel base important, the tens of thousands of workers that are employed by these mega manufacturers are also skilled positions which if allowed to die out, they would be hard if not possible to replace. Some things just are not as simple to make as a television or some other mass market consumable and so special care must be taken by the government to somehow retain the special skills, qualifications and know how alive for when it is really needed. (even simple jobs like Welding are completely different with warship construction. Not just any commercial welder can weld the hull of a ship using special HY steeles and thats just one skill) $355 billion increase too much? Dunno. I just saw a relevant article and posted it. I have no clue what it's all being spent on and if it's worth it. Check out the bill links to thomas.loc.gov at the bottom of the article if you're interested in the specifics. I would but I already have more access to the military non-black budget info than I could use in a life time [img]smile.gif[/img] Pay raises for armed services? I dunno. Look, I have tons of friends and family members who are vets, and I almost signed up at that time in my life. I have TONS of respect for the service. But, I have heard a lot of my military friends say that it *can* be the worst form of welfare in some cases. Before you flame me, check out what I mean. Good service will get you quite far in the military, but it is demanding. However, if you are predisposed to laziness and are happy being a career buck private, you can (from what I'm told) basically sit on your ass all day without fear of losing a job. Is this true? I admit, I'm not personally knowledgible on it. Your average military member is on call 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, if you calculate the per hour pay scale for the hardships they endure and the danger they face, I think they are vastly under paid. Not too many people have to worry about getting blown off the flight deck of a carrier every morning, nor do they have to worry about being evaporated by Jet turbine exchaust. Thenthere are the small matters of being shot at. Do you know, that nearly every single day of the year, a US serviceman is either shot at or has a brush with death due to his being in the military. Trust me, they do not lead luxury lives and many of the middle management equivelent people with families qualify for food stamps, which I find disgraceful. If your going to skimp, please don't do it with the pay for the people who risk their lives every day for your freedom. However, I do note that the armed forces is one of the better middle income careers out there today, with great benefits for you and your family and a great pension. There are plenty of sectors with underpaid overworked folks. While maintaining every respect and decorum regarding our fine men and women in uniform, I would say I don't have the facts to know about the need to raise their pay. Not much of a carreer if you figure that they can be discharged at any time for ay reason, they can be forced to change residences without notice, they can be ordered to sacrifice their live trying to drop food to people who are shooting ROPG's at them. Not one of your average middle income carreers I would think. That and how do you figure middle income out of roughly 20-22k a year in base salary? (for the average enlisted) PS. Note I tried to keep this as civil as possible. P.P.S. The pension is nice but there are a great many of the people who get forced out just shy of their qualifying period. And most civilian Jobs do not have the phyusical and mental demands placed on you to earn those pension benefits. It is not like in the old days when you were pretty much gaurenteed retirement. Cheers all. [img]graemlins/cheers.gif[/img]

[ 10-23-2002, 02:38 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

[Timber Loftis]

Good points all around, MagicK. I did not know the current pay grade numbers, as the last time I looked was when I was considering and testing for Navy Nuke school. 20-22K is low I admit, even for folks who have some of their living expenses absorbed. Don't they get a salary hike when doing things that are dangerous? Yes, being shot at or put at risk of life or limb is definately not a job perk. But, lots of folks qualify for that. I've got quite a few death cases regarding construction workers of one form or another. Not quite so dangerous as military, but certainly nothing to sneeze at. Of course, considering the strength of labor unions in Chicago, those folks get paid more than double the numbers you're mentioning. Hell, telephone men and plumbers get nearly triple.

[/)eathKiller]

Originally posted by Ronn_Bman: I was especially glad to hear that the defense increase actually includes a 4 plus percent salary increase for the men and women of the armed services.[/QB]

WOOHOO! *does a little dance*

Seriously tho, I'm loving this defense spending, but that might be because I do voulenteer work for the government... and plan on working for it some day... but hey! who'se gonna say free money is bad? [img]tongue.gif[/img] And don't worry, sometimes real idiots are appointed to positions where 500 dollar hamemrs are bought, but usually nice, responsible, and ordinary civilians like yourselves are all put in charge of the spending on things like that [img]tongue.gif[/img] And they usually have to spend within a budget, for example, only 500 dollars to spend ON hammers, therefore you can get alot of hammers that cost 1.25 or what-not... The reality is is that everyone has a budget... well except one person... I think the only person who can use the nation's budget in excess and throw us into further trillions of debt is the president, actually... [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Morgeruat]

Originally posted by antryg: I agree with Magik that our servicemen and women deserve a pay raise. Like anywhere else the better the pay the better quality people will stay.

I can second that, I'm a Seargeant with four years in the Army, and I have a friend that's an assistant manager at a Wendy's that makes more money than me in a month (of course I get all my state taxes back at the end of the year...)

[Morgeruat]

Originally posted by MagiK: That and how do you figure middle income out of roughly 20-22k a year in base salary? (for the average enlisted)

before my food allowance (since there isn't a dining facility here) I make 18,500 a year before taxes, considering that I'm on call 24 hours a day 7 days a week, and can be called in for any reason at any time, I did some quick calculations and I make approximately $.48 an hour

[ 10-23-2002, 03:39 PM: Message edited by: Morgeruat ]