Evil Gas Guzzeling SUV's save the day!

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Attalus: LOL, I never cease to be amazed at the kind of venom that mere vehicle ownership can arouse in some people. The Left is never happy unless they can tell people what they can and cannot do.

It never ceases to amaze me that the groups that scream the most about having the freedom to chose what they want to do with their life, body and their beliefs. Are the ones doing the loudest screaming about being controled by the "Right" while in the same breath Excually tell others want they can and can't do with their life, body, or beliefs.

Sorry T.L. I couldn't resist

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Well, as an SUV owner I can only deride them so far. But, there was an annual occurrence during the first snowfall/blackice every year in Vermont - SUVs spinning off the road. In some instances, they create a false sense of security: positraction/AWD is great but only does so much, and on sheer ice brakes are brakes are brakes. BTW, my little 1993 Mazda MX-6 front-wheel 4-banger never once failed to get me up the 3 mile dirt road to the top of the mountain I lived on in VT. It took a run-and-go and a lot of patience sometimes, but FWD + good snow tire work wonders.

FWD is great harder to lose it, but if you do lose it, harder to recover.

Wet road, curve, 110+mph, most perfect slide around a curve you have ever seen, turned the wheels into the slide didn't do squat, under 100mph on the straightaway now still looking out the passenger side window, bright idea to give it gas to pull the back end back inline, instantaneous 360's, sliding and spining, absolut thing of beauty, until it bounced off the guard rails.

[Davros]

Originally posted by MagiK: I made no moral or judgemental comments, I just posted the headline. [img]smile.gif[/img]

We must read different papers of a morning

Actually I skim about 2 dozen news sources each morning while Im doing my morning Systems Checks. Everything from the Washington post and New York Times to the National Security Archive and the NASA JPL news links.

[Thoran]

Originally posted by Sir Krustin: Quote: Originally posted by Thoran: Hell my Legacy GT Limited is more capable on slippery, snowy or rough roads than an SUV... Posi rear axle, electronic center diff, high tech design compared to 30 year old suspension and drivetrain designs in many overpriced SUV's. Every time I see the leaf spring rear on a Durango I laugh my a$$ off.

Leaf springs are needed for high load carrying capability, all the best light/medium duty trucks use them. I'm sure your Legacy isn't rated for more than 800lbs. [img]tongue.gif[/img] [/QUOTE]I'd have to disagree with that... coil springs can be created with very high stiffness (as with leaf springs, this comes at the cost of ride quality). There are better options for the very few SUV's that would need to carry more than golf bags... coil springs and air bags being the optimum solution I would imagine. IMO the continued use of leaf springs is indicative of the desire of truck manufacturers to maximize profits, not provide capability. NOW... if you start talking about building a rock climber for a reasonable amount of money then leaf springs become a great option.

Here's a comparison of two very similar trucks, one IRS with coils, one live axle with Leaf springs, the Caddy (with Coil springs) has greater load capacity.
http://www.trucktrend.com/roadtests/...6_/index4.html

The Grand Cherokee, a smaller vehicle with a fully independant suspension and coil shocks has only 400lbs less load capacity than the Durango. The Expedition with a solid rear axle and coil shocks has MORE capacity.

I'm personally not against SUV's, we've got a Suburban for towing and it's great at it... but when the weather gets bad I'll take my Soob any day. Two weeks ago a blazer spun on icy roads and took the car in front of me out. 4wd is NOT good on slippery surfaces at speed, yet this guy seemed to think he could pass me and the guy in front of me on very icy roads. I used to have an old Ramcharger, and when the footing was not good the thing was very difficult to drive, even in 4wd.

I guess when I think about it, the problem I've got with SUV's isn't the vehicles at all... it's the drivers. They hop in these vehicles and expect to drive them like a family sedan, and because they have a "big truck" they believe they can drive 65mph through ice, snow, and slush. That's why the majority of vehicles I see in ditches every year up here are trucks... it's not that they're inherently dangerous, it's that people don't know how to drive 'em. They don't handle or brake like a decent quality sedan, and people shouldn't be driving them like they do. I guess I wouldn't care at all if it wasn't MY life and the lives of my wife and kids they put in danger when they go flying down the road with a 5000lb vehicle and no traction. Sure most SUV accidents are single vehicle accidents (for the reasons stated above I imagine), but when they do hit another car as they careen around, they do a LOT of damage. The people out there who think they are buying their safety at the expense of mine cheeze me off more even that those who just don't know how to drive an SUV.

In the end, I think the problem will go away once gas gets to $3.00/gal or more(which I've heard might happen this year depending on how the "war" goes). Then SUV's will be out of the daily driver game for most people, and used for what they're good at, towing, deep snow conditions (admittedly rare but it does happen), off roading, and maybe for the occasional trip where the family needs more leg room than their grocery getter provides.

[Thoran]

Originally posted by John D Harris: FWD is great harder to lose it, but if you do lose it, harder to recover. Wet road, curve, 110+mph, most perfect slide around a curve you have ever seen, turned the wheels into the slide didn't do squat, under 100mph on the straightaway now still looking out the passenger side window, bright idea to give it gas to pull the back end back inline, instantaneous 360's, sliding and spining, absolut thing of beauty, until it bounced off the guard rails.

In my experience 4WD is worse than FWD on ice... of course AWD (with a good awd system) is the best. The vast majority of FWD cars (or all cars for that matter) are set up to push like crazy (understeer), and this makes it difficult to actually get the rear coming around on you as you describe (not that it can't be done). The majority of FWD off road excursions happen becase the driver feels the car sliding, panics, hits the brakes and slides straight off the road. I've always liked FWD cars because I've found that I've been able to utilize torque steer to get out of those situations (hitting the gas with a 4wd vehicle in my experience often enough ended in spinning out in the opposite direction that I decided I didn't care for it [img]smile.gif[/img] ). RWD cars have been tricky for me too, I can execute a nice drift or even an oversteer turn with my Z28, but if the road surface is not smooth it gets very difficult to control (partially the fault of a live axle suspension)... and once it gets past a certain angle you're just along for the ride. AWD has been much more forgiving on this count, you can get the rear loose, and apply power to pull things back straight without whipping your ass end around into an oversteer in the opposite direction. I've been VERY impressed with the Audi's and Soob's I've driven.

Originally posted by Thoran: There are better options for the very few SUV's that would need to carry more than golf bags... .

This sentence is sooooo very wrong, it may be true that in the cities there are people who don't use their SUV's for anything but golf bags, but I gaurentee you that there are very very many people who haul cement, fertilizer, people, feed, grain, tools, bricks, mortar, sand, gravel and a whole host of other things on a regular basis in their SUV's. You need to think outside the suburbs people...there are millions of people who live in rural areas who have legitimate uses for SUV's who do not golf!

[Thoran]

Originally posted by MagiK: Quote: Originally posted by Thoran: There are better options for the very few SUV's that would need to carry more than golf bags... .

This sentence is sooooo very wrong, it may be true that in the cities there are people who don't use their SUV's for anything but golf bags, but I gaurentee you that there are very very many people who haul cement, fertilizer, people, feed, grain, tools, bricks, mortar, sand, gravel and a whole host of other things on a regular basis in their SUV's. You need to think outside the suburbs people...there are millions of people who live in rural areas who have legitimate uses for SUV's who do not golf! [/QUOTE]Next time I see a $50,000 Escalade hauling bricks I'll admit I'm wrong .

On the other hand... I have hauled a LOT of bricks in the back of my Suburban... but I don't own a pickup and the suburban's worth maybe $5,000 tops. I live WAY outside the suburbs, and even here people who own SUV's rarely use them to haul. The people around here who want to haul own trucks. I wish I could spend $40k on a vehicle, then fold down those leather seats and fill the back with manure, but I just don't have that kind of cash. I honestly think that "very few" is a realistic assertion of the number of SUV's that are used for purposes where an SUV would actually be called for.

[ 02-20-2003, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: Thoran ]

How many of those $50,000 escalades do you think are out there? Ill bet ya dollars to donuts for every escalade there are 10 suburbans or other real working SUV's. If you don't see the SUV's being used, then you dn't live in farm country [img]smile.gif[/img] or timber country, or mining country. People may not use them for hauling every single day, but they fill aneed, otherwise they never would have come into existance inthe first place.

At any rate, the bottom line is, in this country you don't have to justify your actions to the government or eco groups. We are supposed to be free to pursue happiness and freedom as long as we break no laws.

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by MagiK: How many of those $50,000 escalades do you think are out there? Ill bet ya dollars to donuts for every escalade there are 10 suburbans or other real working SUV'sv

Yeah, well tell that to all the Hummers and Escalades bopping around Miami - where this is no hill taller than 20ft, BTW.