So, what other RPG's worth playing?

[Wyvern]

It was a very nice ramble, Bungleau!

I saw "eye candy" as becoming increasingly important to developers over the years. There were so many reviews that I recall that criticized the developers if there wasn't something "new" and that generally meant new in terms of eye candy and special effects. And as an additional comment - a lot of that emphasis also seems aimed at young men rather than gamers in general.

My question has always been - if a company had used the same engine they had developed and created a new and better game - wouldn't that have sold well too?

But games such as M&M didn't create new and better games - they spun out the old game in a new - but pretty much the same old thing - form. So many series were like that, same old story with slight changes. So much emphasis in the wrong places and a seemingly lack of creative stories.

I ran a RPG online (in chat) for many (many) years and I know that it can become difficult to constantly come up with new things, new ideas and challenges. Do developers end up in a relative vacuum because so much of their time is devoted to getting their product done that they don't have the time to do the things that really get the creative juices flowing?

Reviewers do affect the market. Even though over all W&W must have done so much better than the reviewers would have had you believe, the damage is pretty much already done. I'm speculating that there probably was less development money to be found and that Bradley probably got it more from his reputation and success with the Wizardry series than from W&W. That would obviously make him less inclined to repeat the "failure" of W&W.

Reviewers have their own axe to grind. I generally find them to be half reviewing and half self-promoting their standing as reviewers. They have deadlines to meet and don't always put the time into a game that they might have if they were just playing for their own enjoyment but they have to make sure you think of them as "elite" players.

And the games seem to cater to players who aren't interested in the puzzles or opportunity to be someone else in another place and time but interested in getting the highest stats and most gold. That's a simplifications - but I hope you understand what I mean. I ran a chat rpg for years and years and I had players who really got into being their characters and some that were only concerned about - well, I'm not sure what to call it - status? power?

Years ago there just seemed to be so many choices and now there seem to be so
few.

One of the most frustrating and satisfying games I played was way back in something like 1982 - a game called Asylum for the PC. There was a Nintendo version which had vastly superior graphics (the PC version bordered on being stick people) but the game itself was modified. (I played both) To solve the puzzles you really had to try different things and ultimately it came down to a Sherlock Holmes solution - if you have ruled out all other possibilities, what remains, however improbable, must be correct and it was.

And then there were all the Infocom games - no graphics at all - and they were wonderful games! They had their frustrating moments when the necessary solution was so far fetched but they were fun!

Oh well, I've rambled on a bit as well and I'm not sure I've said anything that adds insight. I have less time for games these days than I once had.

[Bungleau]

Agreed, Wyv. I often refer to MM7 as "MM6, chapter 2", since it really was nothing new. I think there's a tradeoff between creating new worlds and continuing activities in the same world, much like a good DM does in a campaign.

I think there is a greater focus on amassing the largest amount of gold and power. Ego-stroking, perhpas. I much prefer the puzzles.... heck, I remember finally figuring out in MM1 that Og's puzzle referred to a Star Trek episode, and I found a friend who happened to have it on video, and who watched it for me. Talk about delayed gratification! There was nothing immediate about it, nothing at all. But boy, did it feel good when I got it done

Sadly, I don't have much time to game any more either, which is why I don't just pick up the next game that comes out. I anticipate I'll be playing it for a while to come, so it has to be good.

I'll respond to your other thread as well, and think about the good ol' days [img]smile.gif[/img]

[dragon2005]

Try playing folluot it is very cool game but kind of old.
alsoo try to play arcnum- it is very good game with many quest and game charectors.
it is allso multiy plable in the net .
it have difrants endins that dipands on how you go through the game.

have fun.
dragon2005.

[macoati]

All,

I doubt my posting absence has been painful to any but myself. Since my last post I've merely been lurking as I wait for DL to actually be released. When that happens I will have to upgrade my 4 year old system.

However, this question of why are the more recent games relatively poorer than the good old days forces my fingers to post once again [img]smile.gif[/img] .

Both Wyv and B are correct in their assessments but they don't quite capture the truth of the situation. I pray you give me the benefit of your time ... and here is a bit of background on myself:
I am 36 and have been gaming with P&P and computers (including NES and others) since I was 10. I have co-written my own P&P system with two other long-time friends inclusive of all levels of combat from single melee to massive armies and magic. Coupled with this a hugely flexible character development portion that allows any given player to tailor their character but limits their abilities. I'll now dispense with the self horn blowing because it truly isn't important to this discussion but I do hope it does add a bit of legitimacy to my opinion.

Both treatises so far posted have touched on the core of the problem: lack of imagination. I believe it is not the developers who have lost it but the players. Today's consumer of games like to have themselves spoonfed. A case in point: If you are a fan of the Lords of the Ring trilogy films but not the books, ask yourself why. JR's story is the classic good vs evil plot where good wins. His writing style spelled out the visions he wanted his readers to see in excruciating detail (I mean this in a good way). Because of this detail, the movies were able to capture his world and characters. Those who knew nothing of LoR before the films devoured them because of the sheer vision presented and the simple yet powerful story.

Those that have knowledge of LoR and stories of the like generally were able to see the depth of those films in their presentation...the FIRST time they saw them not the tenth.

I remember thinking on Fellowship something like "beautiful" but on the characters "hmmm...so far they don't quite have the right flavor". I also remember a post by either Willow or Wyv after Two Towers on the depth of the character development of Golem (and that the actor who portrayed him did a great job).

The point is this: current consumers of computer games a just plain LAZY. Thinking tends to not part of their desire when playing a game. Most 'newer' computer gamers I know cannot "think outside the box". As long as the game they are currently in has a distinct line to a goal, whatever it may be, they can play. As soon as a game throws them a curve (such as the drawbridge puzzle in Bane of the Cosmic Forge - W6) they generally give it up because it is "too hard".

B mentioned P&P gaming. In this form, the DM had to give the parameters and the "vision" for his players. The players then worked within the set to accomplish their goals - whether they be parallel or not. My goal as a DM was to 'set the stage' and then let the players determine what happens in the world. There was a lot of (some of you will get this) "making it up as I went along"...but it was never horrible [img]smile.gif[/img] .

Games today are not intended to force gamers to think...that might kill their attention span. Consider the 'end state' of most computer game characters: be the biggest, baddest, richest, most powerful whatever you can be ... oh, and by the way, beat the bad guy. Real gaming is ALL ABOUT beating the bad guy. Current games create "Monty Hall" situation (W&W included - see fletchery with enchanted Dragon arrows). What makes W&W so enjoyable is the character within the story. Most of us know the end state of the game...the fun is in getting there.

In short - laziness in the consumer produces companies that cater glitter to make gold.

Now that I've reread what I wrote above I can truly say that I am sad ... the loss of such enjoyable times attempting to 'figure it out' makes me hope DL is the answer to my gaming prayers. Otherwise, I may just have to find a group of P&P players and resurrect my world [img]smile.gif[/img] .

If you read this post this far, thank you...if not, sorry it was so long!

Regards

[Bungleau]

Well, you have been missed, Macoati... so welcome back [img]graemlins/happywave.gif[/img]

I agree with you in many ways. I remember the challenge of MM1, my first CRPG. It made me use my brain in ways that weren't spelled out in the game, and certainly weren't hinted at in the manual. Things like the magic number puzzle dungeon, the Astral Plane dungeon where the key to exit was written in the walls... those were great things.

Today, every answer is self-contained within the game so that you don't have to work that hard. I resent that in many ways, although I will be the first to say that with the Bridge puzzle in Skull Castle, I really, really would welcome an easy answer [img]smile.gif[/img]

It's a sad reflection on society (at least here in the US, and perhaps elsewhere) that we fear to challenge people to greater heights, afraid that they might step back from the edge and go elsewhere. But what of those who take the challenge, and succeed? There's nothing left for them, unfortunately.

I think that releasing a game like W&W along with a development kit is the way to go. You can address the masses with the easy stuff, and those who are *real* gamers will take the tools and create new worlds and new adventures. And if you were smart, you'd find a way to repackage those for the rest of the world as well...

I wait for DL as well, and I hope, too. I'm playing BG right now to get a feel for a different game (since I've had it for about three years). At least ranged weapons are useful there...

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. They are well appreciated, well-reasoned, and well-presented.

[macoati]

Thank you for both the welcome back and the kind words. I've often thought long about this subject - in both games and real life. I am not a teacher but have had the opportunity to teach groups of high-schoolers. The sad case of thought in the US - and maybe the world at large - is that people aren't taught HOW to think. I was a physics/math major in college...now I am an auditor (yes, my job is to spread hate and discontent - but I get to teach a bit too [img]smile.gif[/img] )

I once asked one of my professors "why do we have to learn this crap" and his reply was classic: "To make you think like a phisicist."

In my P&P games, I gave my players all the rope they needed...usually they succeeded in hanging something, sometimes themselves. The joy I had as a DM was in seeing my 'world' developed by the players. Todays games have almost no development by their players...because this would cost too much to implement. My sincere hope is that DWB (Wyv, Willow, yourself, Radek, or whoever you are - grin!) has frequented this board often and seen our collective desires...implemented them into DL ... and cause us to collectively thank him with our hard earned money!

I tell you what, B, I've got the system but not the expertise...wanna go into a partnership? [img]smile.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Wyvern]

Most interesting -

I'm only semi-coherent, recovering from a severe cold - but I have a question for you providing I can figure out how to state it -

Do you see the time line which represents the deterioration of the quality and number of CRPGS offered to be inversely proportional to the increase of "strategy"/answer guides (and sites) on the market?

I hope that makes sense - Basically I think that when the developers started selling the solutions along side the game itself, games really fell apart. Puzzles didn't need to be logical or anything at all because players could find the answer - spoon fed.

[Bungleau]

Developers have been selling the answers for a long time, though. I remember reading somewhere that the publishers of Bard's Tale II knew that the game was being pirated when the number of hint guides sold was greater than the number of games sold...

On one hand, the hint guide is an additional source of revenue -- it makes a $40 game into a $60 game. On the other, it does take away the intellectual challenge in the game.

And a partnership could be interesting, Macoati. I've got a good sense for running a business and addressing those things, but I wouldn't count myself as a strong gaming developer at this point. I'd need to flesh that out, or more likely, find someone to do it.

[macoati]

Wyvern,

The correlation I see for the downfall of wonderfully frustrating yet completely intoxicating CRPG's is two fold - 1) When graphics became 'pretty' around the 386DX or so, most developers spent a lot of money going for the next 'cool new effect' and they dropped the story. 2) When answers/cheats/trainers/hacks/etc became available to the general populace every game became a "Monty Hall" campaign. (For those of you who don't know the Monty Hall reference with respect to D&D campaigns - it means getting rediculous loot for killing something like a wargur and/or jumping you 50 levels - also has a negative conotation on the DM of the game who won't let one of the characters die even if they really deserve it by being stupid - which is known as "DM insurance")

I remember when SNES came out and the games were still quite fun and the graphics were nice (not great) as well. Then the next generation of SNES games came out and the graphics were ten times better...but the games were not all that. I don't remember the dates but I expect around 1986 or 1987. We lost 'good developement' in the stand alone gaming systems but it remained in the computer world for at least another four or five years. My game references for these conclusions are: the Dragon Warrior series for NES...the orginal 2 Final Fantasy games for NES/SNES...and then the subsequent editions of FF to current.

In the computer world my reference is the Wizardry series. When Wizardry included 'modern' weapons in Crusaders, the game was ruined. Remember in W1 you had wireline graphics and you HAD to map it (damn scrolling cooridors [img]smile.gif[/img] ) In the subsequent editions the graphics gradually improved but were still basically wireline...just prettier until you hit W7 which became close to 3D and W8 (what 8 years after 7?) was 3D and quite 'pretty'. It still had several 'good things' but as soon as you throw anything into a game that "doesn't fit" into the genre (like lasers, fire arms, spaceships, etc unless that IS the setting) you lose the flavor the game. Firepower in a D&D or mideval settings should be MAGIC, ARMIES, and Siege Weapons. My true love of the CRPG world was the Wizardry series so I'm admitedly biased towards DWB and the like. However, I have found in almost all projects of his good gaming.

When the "answers" and the cheats hit the shelves or internet the challenge to 'figure it out' was lost. Think about what we can do to a new player of W&W...with one post we could destroy any of the mystery/fun. I believe that's why we follow unwritten rules and only make spoiling posts when necesary or with sufficient warning. Ask yourself why we do that and the answer is because we had so much fun in discovering the answer that we want new players to have that joy of a 'eureka moment'.

Anymore, when I play a new game, if it doesn't pique my interest early on even I will look for easy ways to finish it. I did this with Warcraft when I realized that it was basically the same thing over and over with a new thing thrown in roughly each scenario. I absolutely HATE a game that treats me like Warcraft...even though I've played them all except the newest version. I suppose my hope of a good game springs eternal [img]smile.gif[/img]

Bungleau,

My expertise is in mathematics and physics theory for the technical stuff. For CRPG's I'm more of an idea guy...the last language I actually did desent progamming for was Apple Basic [img]smile.gif[/img] (I think I just completely dated myself there) The pen and paper system I developed with my two friends IS beautiful and realistic. The joy of that system is that it alomost eliminates the mundane rolling for the DM and let's them concentrate on the campaign. It can be as simple as you want it or as complex...just depends on how many times you want to roll dice. So, to make this terribly long story longer, if you have a programmer...I have the system...and I'm not bad in business either [img]smile.gif[/img]

The sticking point now is the magic...it's only about 1/2 written even though the spells are known they have no flesh. We haven't worked on it for about 4 years since we don't play anymore. The system has been alpha and beta tested by several experienced gamers already so I know it works well...I just don't know how to put it into the magic box and let electrons do their dance.

[Marikai]

WYVERN!!!! OMG!! I so owe you an email!


As for the question... I'd say try out Daggerfall.

OR

Albion. Damn that's an awesome game... as old as my bones but hey... still awesome