Religion

[Grungi]

Some points

- earth is suspended IN nothing not over nothing, as space is emptiness with no up down, left right etc, so looks like job got it wrong [img]tongue.gif[/img]

- evolution, carbon dating etc have been proved my thousands of scientists time and again, doesnt mean they are correct but gives far more credence than a book written thousands of years ago, so you choose to believe the bible over proven science, your choice but dont ridicule others for believing what is more provable, in any other situation such as in a court of law your statements would be considered fantastical, which is another point in itself, you have to swear to god (or used to) on the bible when giving the truth, but if you said you saw jesus in a courtroom noone would believe you, hows that work? the people actually swearing on the bible dont truly believe its what it says it is, doh to that, people that hold GOD high wouldnt believe you if you had a vision about him, dismissing it as fantastical, like people who are religious to do me when i say i really have seen a ghost, i have and you cant convince me otherwise, was when i was younger and was a disembodied hand, not massively scary admittedly, blue, transparent and coming through my door, then it went, never saw anything like it again, but no religious people i told before believed me, yet they believe in a holy ghost and a divine people, so they can laugh at me, im sorry i laugh straight back, whose the bigger fool? I believe in things i can see at least.

- cloud

i dont expect religious types to be perfect, i expect them to strive towards it, insulting/sarcasm etc hurts people and that i believe goes against tenants of all major religions, shouldnt hurt other people in any manner, if im wrong please tell me now and ill drop the point, but however much you think sarcasm doesnt hurt people, it does, words do hurt, anyone the subject of bullying realises that words hurt far more than sticks & stones, personally these days say what you like to me im toughskinned, but others are less fortunate, just because they make stupid comments is it right or within your religion to make them feel bad about it? (pathetic example earlier i know but however small that sarcastic comment was maybe it did actually hurt his feelings)

for me:

a murderer who kills is terrible, they breach societies morals and my morals.

a religious (if their religion is against murder) murderer who kills is way worse, because not only are they breaching society's morals and my morals they also breach their own.

same kinda thing for me with the sarcasm, if im sarcastic to someone and hurt their feelings then yeah i know i shouldnt have done it but im not overly bothered, if i was a christian (sorry its the example i keep using but im talking about most religions) then id feel worse if i had hurt soemone else.

Rokenn totally agree with your two points earlier on, and yeah its going round in circles, i said that ages ago, you cant prove it till you die and even then not so sure.

Oh and cloud yes i do have strange beliefs [img]smile.gif[/img] very unique ones which im proud of, the good thing about my beliefs is given proof they can change, my mind isnt set one way or the other unlike unfortunately most peoples, if im given solid proof then they change, though i will never ever accept the fact that a supreme being is my superior (ie he might exist but fcked if im bowing down before him)

[Cloudbringer]

Originally posted by The Trickster: Hi Hugh!!! It's great to see that you are still you, and sticking up for what you believe. Personally, I am going to stay out of this whole discussion, as I have learnt my lesson from past experience. There is one thing that I would like to say, before I back off and become a non-active spectator. A MESSAGE TO EVERYONE VIEWING THIS THREAD! Please treat everyone here as a human being. Just because you can hide behind a monitor somewhere, does not give anyone the right to abuse someone else's beliefs and way of life. If you are joining this discussion, or any discussion for that matter, with the sole intention of putting down another IW member's beliefs, then my suggestion is that you just forget it. By all means, discuss religion, ask questions, but directly insulting someone's intelligence shows nothing but a case of narrow mindedness and just plain rudeness (I admit to being involved in this myself). Otherwise, there's some very strong thought processes going on here. [img]smile.gif[/img]

I just want to emphasize the points Trickster made. Very good ones, Ben!!

A discussion of religion or politics can often get heated and out of hand. So far, this one is doing pretty well. Let's be sure it continues to be a discussion, an exchange of ideas and thoughts, not a free-for-all brawl.

I'm impressed by the way it's being handled by everyone. DO keep in mind that personal insults don't really accomplish much and almost always get a few people angry and a thread closed down.

***If you find you are getting hot under the collar about something said here, pm the person who said it. Or leave the thread.

***If you think this discussion is a waste of time or you are frustrated because you think nobody will ever come around to your way of thinking, it might be a good time to read something else. [img]smile.gif[/img] If you find the discussion boring, silly, pointless, etc. it doesn't serve any purpose to post that to others who are interacting politely and having a discussion they find worthwhile.

Nobody is forcing us to read any thread on the forum...well, I have to, but that's another story! LOL

[Grungi]

people are beginning to get towards flaming on here again, this started off as a well put debate between me and ceric, getting a bit out of hand.

its NOT childish whoever wrote it is, people are trying to put their views across but both sides are unable to prove things either way, cept science proves things but the religious side doesnt believe science is right, so you cant argue with that.

belief is a personal thing as i been saying all along, but organised religion i do have a problem with because it gets things wrong all the time, it does more harm than good IMO, personal religion does more good than harm IMO so do the math.

So far i dont think i seen anyone attacking someone elses religion, if they did the moderator cloud (forget the rest of the name sorry [img]tongue.gif[/img] ) would have removed the post or cut the thread, everything i have said has been my honest opinions and i tried to be within the bounds of reasonable behaviour, i dont think i have offended anyone yet.

but can you lot stop reiterating the same points cos neither of you can prove the other wrong, until as someone said you die, and even then its not clear, one thing i would say to you all is there are some things that ALL of us should without question aspire to

- honesty
- respect for others
- a good demanour
- avoid hurting others if you can help it

I hope we can ALL be in agreement to that, those are the precepts of my belief and it keeps me on the right path, i just dont need religion to tell me those things.

and i do like the anti muslim bit creeping in, with the argument of the bible was written before the qu'ran therefore its more relevant, how can you purport an argument for christianity when putting down another religions claim? In both cases theres a one God or Allah, so when he decides to let people know of his exsistence thats HIS choice and it doesnt matter if he decided to do it yesterday or 10,000 years ago, so why on earth it matters that the bible was written earlier? you want to get into that argument? cave men drawings predate all of your religious texts by a very long way, and showed worship of ancient gods long before the bible. Im sorry but age doesnt make the religion, that the best argument you got for why christianity is the true religion and islam isnt?

The most important thing to remember about it all is to live your life to the best you can, whether science, religion or whatever helps you do that then all power to you.

[Grungi]

well damnit cloudBRINGER (remembered it this time) how dare you read my mind and post what i posted seconds after you did, thats just not on [img]tongue.gif[/img] erm yeah like i said if it gets out of hand you'd close it down, bah bah bah steal my thunder why dont you (ah your a cloud afterall so fair enough [img]smile.gif[/img] )

watch out for cloudbringers spooky mindreading esp abilities!

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by Grungi: its NOT childish whoever wrote it is, people are trying to put their views across but both sides are unable to prove things either way, cept science proves things but the religious side doesnt believe science is right, so you cant argue with that.

See, you're just asking for it when you say stuff like that. It kinda reads like:

"now now people, let's all just calm down. Science proves things and if religious people are too dense to accept this then that's their problem. Let's all be calm and civilized. See, am I not being all wonderful and civilized ?"

.....

[Grungi]

damn u read my subtext [img]tongue.gif[/img]

what i mean it to read like is we all have our opinions, this debate is pointless because both sides have unassaible arguments, one side belives in a divine being, who can argue with that? its not earthly proof, so no argument possible cept we dont believe, and on the other side we have earthly proof (which i can identify with far more) but no divine being to fall back on and no argument other than proof which other people will prove wrong again in 50 years time, so either way we lose and the argument has run its course and really cant go anywhere else i think.

yes in my honest opinion science wins over religion but i see massive flaws in both and personally i stay out of the way of either [img]smile.gif[/img] but i dont want people to bother arguing with me about it hence why i didnt say it just now in my last two posts, you cant convince me, i seen every argument going i think, and i cant convince you different and all the info is there (200 posts of it) so is there a point in continuing where the only place left to go for this topic is flamewars?

that more conscise? sorry i have a tendancy to ramble a bit when im replying to posts so i dont elucidate as i should

[Garnet FalconDance]

WEll, you were all quite verbal after I went home last night!

I'm glad the point that not *all* religions have a written holy book. Although I consider myself as the spiritual rather than the religious type, my faith still does not have a written doctrine that we all follow and we are not alone in that.

Faith and trust are nearly inclusive as they tend to go hand-in-hand. Can anyone conclusively divide them once and for all? They are too closely related. And 'faith' does not necessarily denote a *religious* slant as we usually define such. (ok, I'm getting off that track since it's turning circular)

I do agree with Yorrik, however, (as usual, strangely enough) that we are all a product of our society's faith irregardless of our later choice. I was brought up Southern Baptist and have studied all the major and most of the 'minor' religions. Yet I still chose paganism and refined it to a form of witchcraft (non-wiccan) which, though it is reviled by most of society as demonic (it isn't) and somehow less than a religion, still reflects and fulfills a need within myself to connect to a Deity in a way which works for me. There is no sacrifice unless you count the giving of my fears, dislikes/hatreds, and other negatives over. There are very strong morals and ethics to which I hold myself. This doesn't mean I completely disregard my upbringing...I still have little bits of Christian beliefs coloring my actions and thoughts. I simply could not agree with all the doctrine, etc which Christianity touts.

Yorrick, you know me (well, I know I haven't been around much lately...) so don't lambast me on this one. [img]smile.gif[/img]

One's beliefs are their own, influenced by their upbringing, but ultimately between themselves and whatever (if any) they consign as a higher power. All the rest is, in the end, immaterial.

[Hiram Sedai]

Okay, I had to stop for a while to get some sleep. But I'm back now.

I guess I've always enjoyed discussing theology when faith isn't really an issue. I know I can't argue faith because of how subjective it is. That's another reason I enjoy history so much..the emotional portion is removed.

I do agree with what's been said thus far about us not personally attacking each other and I certainly won't leave in a huff and delete my account. Now, that would be silly. (looks around and hope no one remembers)

So, when I see an objective sort of discussion that I find interesting, I'll jump in. Hopefully, it won't be at 2:00 AM again.

[Grungi]

Strong personal opinion following be warned:

and yes i been civilised so far, i havent stated, though im about to, that the way muslims treat women is DISGUSTING and i consider it to be scummy and less than human and id quite happily see anyone who treats them so badly shot in the face and left for dead. BUT i have loads of good friends who are muslim and treat the women well, its mainly iran and afghanistan where they are treated so badly (beaten locked up, married off to men 4 times their age etc) theres alot of points about other religions that makes me sick to my gut, but thats not religions fault thats humans fault so hence my arguments are trying to point out the flaws i find with religions and science because i can do that in a civilised manner, when it comes to things like the spanish inquisiton, muslim treatment of women in places such as iran, jewish disdain for non jewish in certain countries , things like that make me very very angry, but nothing i can do about it, and unfortunately its all a cultural thing rather than religious and its all brought about by ignorance and smallminded humans, hence i dont want to dwell on any of it, if i could without law intervening i would take a gun and summarily execute/maim/hurt every mfcuker (religious or otherwise) who treats other people so badly (such as the childmolesting vicar who preached at our school, i think he deserves a lifetime of pain or death whichever, not because hes religious but because of what he did) , but as i said before for me respect is important and i respect people who deserve it, people like bin laden deserve nothing less than complete pain. I want a world where noone hurts other people, but it isnt going to happen because of human nature. Btw i heard arguments from muslims justifying stoning to death a woman whose veil slipped in public cos she fell and it came of BY ACCIDENT! this from people i know in england that kind of thing makes my jaw drop, esp as in the same breath they proclaim mighty allah, im sure if there is an allah he would NOT condone that kind of despicable action.

I dont have words to describe how angry i get when hearing things like this but i try and control all that when posting here, and im trying to post without upsetting or insulting anyone, as i said before i was having a good dispute with cerek earlier, both bringing up interesting points. See people like cerek i have alot of respect for, if more were like him the world would be a better place, unfortunately for every one of him theres two of bin laden types, human nature and thats why i believe our race is doomed to extinction unless everyone pulls together and follows the precepts of honesty, love, respect etc regardless of religion, science or any other beliefs.

sorry i went off on one there [img]tongue.gif[/img] but i think i been clear about how i feel, so anything i do say on here you can put in perspective:

- I have nothing but admiration for the majority of the precepts put out in major religions.
- I have nothing but disdain for people who subvert those precepts as an excuse to cause others harm

[ 12-05-2002, 08:30 AM: Message edited by: Grungi ]

[Garnet FalconDance]

Unfortunately, there are fanatics in *every* religion/faith system that garner most of the attention due to their extremes. Not that this is fair to the remainder, simply a sad fact. Anyone who is not angered by the misuse of another human is indeed.....well, I can't think of a word strong enough and still keep it clean.

No one is questioning your morals, Grungi. Or the right to feel outrage over the deliberate twisting of religious doctrine to rationalize atrocities. But by the same token, we need to be careful not to tar all members of a faith by the same brush because a few of their number have decided to pervert the faith.