Religion

[fable]

quote:

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Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric:
When Christians pray fervently, God DOES listen. On that Monday night, 4 years ago, I can safely say that at least 2/3 of the Christians in my home-town area were on their knees praying for my life.

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By that same token, I know (and I'm not making this up) of people who were saved by miracles and whose relatives and friends prayed to Allah (in one case) and Vishnu (in another). I have also known of children who were saved by the totemic spirits of Native American shamans. It would appear that the important step is the belief, not the identity of the god or gods.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

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Originally posted by fable:


By that same token, I know (and I'm not making this up) of people who were saved by miracles and whose relatives and friends prayed to Allah (in one case) and Vishnu (in another). I have also known of children who were saved by the totemic spirits of Native American shamans. It would appear that the important step is the belief, not the identity of the god or gods.

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I'll agree with that. And it is the faith of the person doing the praying that matters.

I actually knew nothing about the surgeons comments or the prayer chains until after the 72 hours had passed. I knew I was Healed as soon as I woke up after surgery.

[fable]

quote:

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Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric:
I'll agree with that. And it is the faith of the person doing the praying that matters.

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So it isn't a case of "When Christians pray, God DOES listen" (to quote you), but the faith of the Christian/Muslim/Hindu worshiper that matters? Or are you saying that whatever god the Hindu, etc, worships, does listen?

[ 01-19-2002: Message edited by: fable ]

[Cerek the Barbaric]

quote:

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Originally posted by fable:


So it isn't a case of "When Christians pray, God DOES listen" (to quote you), but the faith of the Christian/Muslim/Hindu worshiper that matters? Or are you saying that whatever god the Hindu, etc, worships, does listen?

[ 01-19-2002: Message edited by: fable ]

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No. Actually, I'm just being nice and non-argumentative.

Since you knew these people personally, I don't question that it happened. Personally, though, I don't believe Vishnu or Native American shaman totems answered the prayers.....I believe God did. I didn't say that in the previous Post because I didn't want to disrespect the beliefs of your friends/acquantices (and still don't - I'm just explaining my reasoning).

I don't believe in Vishnu just as they don't believe in God, but that doesn't make the miracle any less miraculous, or their faith any less fervent than mine.

Why would God choose to answer prayers offered to a different diety....I can't say for sure, His ways and reasons are His own....but His love for us is infinite and He knows the heart of every living person. I just rejoice in the miracle, regardless of the reason.

[fable]

quote:

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Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric:
Why would God choose to answer prayers offered to a different diety....I can't say for sure, His ways and reasons are His own....but His love for us is infinite and He knows the heart of every living person. I just rejoice in the miracle, regardless of the reason.

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So you believe the deity is different, depending upon the religion? That there isn't one god, worshipped in many forms and ways by a humankind that cannot begin to grasp the nature of its Creator?

I'm really not trying to egg you on, here. I've spoken to Christians who are very ecumenical, and others who feel that there simply is no meeting ground between their truth, and those claimed by other religions.

[ 01-19-2002: Message edited by: fable ]

[Cerek the Barbaric]

quote:

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Originally posted by fable:


So you believe the deity is different, depending upon the religion? That there isn't one god, worshipped in many forms and ways by a humankind that cannot begin to grasp the nature of its Creator?

I'm really not trying to egg you on, here. I've spoken to Christians who are very ecumenical, and others who feel that there simply is no meeting ground between their truth, and those claimed by other religions.

[ 01-19-2002: Message edited by: fable ]

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To be honost, there may be some truth to that claim. Different cultures interpret things according to their own values and beliefs. Vishnu may simply be the Hindus' interpretation of God. I don't have enough personal knowledge to say for certain, but from what I understand, the 2 theologies are VASTLY different.....that's why I said I don't beleive in Vishnu (but I'm willing to admit the possibility of your theory - God IS Omnipotent - He can be whatever He wishes to).

Muslims, on the other hand, are a direct descendent from Christianity according to the Bible. The Arab nations sprang from the seed of Abraham's son by one of his concubines. Therefore, I DO believe that Allah and God are one and the same - just different names from different cultures.

If God can be Allah, then there is also the chance He could be Vishnu, Buddha, etc. etc.

But, Christianity in general (and Baptist in particular) do not generally believe in pluralism (that more than one religion is correct). So I personally don't think that God has presented Himself as Vishnu or Buddha, because the fundamental theologies are too different (from what little I know).

And your not "egging me on". I enjoy this type of debate. I want to clarify my beliefs, but I will always be respectful of differing views in my Replies.

[Garnet FalconDance]

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Originally posted by Garnet FalconDance:

But in my most basic beliefs, all gods are One. It's man who has divided and differentiated.

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Cerek,

As fable (I believe) is asking, cannot more than one culture believe in 'God' and simply call upon him by a different name and in a different manner? I realize that a number of Christian denominations do not believe in this sort of pluralism, but neither do *all* Christians call upon God in the same manner!

The important thing, as you say, is the *faith* not the name we call our Deity.

It has been posted that "all or most pagans worship more than one god" (paraphrased, I'm sure) and also "worship nature in some way". I would take issue with that statement. I do *not* worship nature--I recognize (God's) hand in all creation. Is not the butterfly or the oak tree a beautiful and miraculous creation? I can rejoice in their existance without deifying them in any manner.

And most pagans I know (and they number substantially) do not believe in multiple gods. They tend to believe in one, manifest for our limited perception in a male-female parity (the Lord and the Lady). (Now here's where it gets dicey and difficult to explain as beliefs and approaches differ widely.) Some call upon aspects of deity to ask for aid with a certain problem (similar to the idea of petitioning a Catholic saint), and these aspects usually carry the names of gods and goddesses from the classical pantheons of the past.

Important to note: while I say this, I am mindful that there are those who consider these 'aspects' full fledged gods and goddesses in their own right.

IMO, no one religion has a *monopoly* on 'God'! He (or She) is such a vast and omniprescent presence, I firmly believe that all the 'gods' and 'goddesses' of mankind are but a tiny piece of the whole power and magnificence!

And as I said originally--it is man who has divided and differentiated when it comes to religion.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

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Originally posted by Garnet FalconDance:


Cerek,

As fable (I believe) is asking, cannot more than one culture believe in 'God' and simply call upon him by a different name and in a different manner? I realize that a number of Christian denominations do not believe in this sort of pluralism, but neither do *all* Christians call upon God in the same manner!

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I agree that it is possible for different cultures to worship God under different names. Perhaps I didn't state it very clearly.

But it is important to look at the fundamental doctrines of the religions too. If we are worshipping the same God, then there should be some commonality in the doctrines. From what I understand, Buddhism and Hinduism have vastly different doctrines than Christianity, so I question whether they are worshipping the one true God or not. But again, I acknowledge that my understanding is finite, so I could be wrong.

[Garnet FalconDance]

I see what you mean. I suppose I'm looking at it slightly differently in that *cultures* vary greatly and so, too, would the way in which they worship.

(And not bashing or flaming [img]smile.gif[/img] ) isn't it strange that most religions consider their god "the one true God" and other cultures' blasphemous imposters?

[fable]

quote:

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Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric:
If we are worshipping the same God, then there should be some commonality in the doctrines. From what I understand, Buddhism and Hinduism have vastly different doctrines than Christianity, so I question whether they are worshipping the one true God or not. But again, I acknowledge that my understanding is finite, so I could be wrong.

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I agree very strongly with your last point--not just for you, but for all of us. Each of us is limited in experience to less than a century's worth of sound and light, feeling and thought, in these bodies. Yet we are trying to formulate doctrines that capture the essence of something which is endless and infinite, hence inherently beyond our comprehension.

Which isn't to say we shouldn't try. But I question whether any doctrine can encompass something so vast that it surpasses understanding. It's like that old Hindu story about the four blind men who came upon an elephant one day--and had never done so, before. One felt its leg, and exclaimed that the elephant was like a tree; another felt the trunk, and said it was like a snake. A third tapped the elephant's side, and said it was like a giant boulder. A fourth tapped a tusk, and said it was like a knife. And so they argued, incessantly, drawing upon experiences they once had, and all were right, and all were wrong.

Perhaps we could identify individual doctrines of disagreement, and examine them to see how a tusk differs from a trunk or a side. What doctrines stand out after this fashion to you?