Penn & Teller Do it again!

[LS0158]

I'd like to watch that show, but the name of it would get me in trouble!

Someone posted that Chiropractors are licensed throughout the states and canada...well duh..why throw out a cash cow?

Psychics are being licensed in some places, faith healers have degrees in theology, the crystal healers in San Diego also had business licenses...you think that means they are elgit? noooo that just means that the government wants its cut of any money making scam. Cigarretes are taxed and stamped by the government too...recognition by autority means nothing, being able to reproduce your results in a lab does.

I staged a test once a long time ago...I was about 18 or so and had a friend who was being suckered by a chirop[ractor for a lot of cash, I set up an appointment, told him I had lower back pain....turns out low and behold I had one leg longer than the other causing a misalignment. I thought this quite odd since Ihad no lower back pain. See anecdotal evidence says this guy was a shyster....so were the other two I visited for free exams at the mall....only problem was that no two could agee on which leg was longer

You won't convince me of chiropractics legitimacy untill they get rid of the scammers and really put some effort into it. Nearly every chiropractor I have ever talked to has had claims aout cureing diseases and skin conditions and arthritus and on and on.....not a good showing for themselves at all. (just a not the first chiropractor I tested was in Pensacola Florida, the second was in San Juan Puerto Rico and the last one I tried was in San Diego...)

[Bardan the Slayer]

True, but that's your experience.

My brother slipped and fell a few years back, curving and misaligning his spine so badly he couldn't even stand up. The GP referred him to a chiropractor who treated him for 8 weeks (I think), and he was back up on his feet.

That's a positive and personally verifyable experience from me [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Attalus]

But, how would you know if your brother wouldn't be well if he hadn't had his back popped? All of the studies cited were patient histories, practice logs, etc. I,e., anecdotal, hence nonverifiable. No double blind, prospective studies have ever shown benefit for chiropractic. The judge, being a man of law, rather than a man of science, rendered a terrible decision, IMHO, leaving the door open for all sorts of insurance scams.

[Davros]

Originally posted by MagiK: I would like to note, that people who have been cured by faith healers, psychic surgery, crystals, coloidal silver, and about a billion other new age pseudo-science practices are just as convinced as TL is about Chiropractors. Anecdotal evidence and testimonials are useless as scientific proof...at best they can merely point the way for a legitimate investigation.

I will start off by saying that I have not seen MagiK's show, and have had no experiences with a chiropractor - so my stance on the matter remains to be defined. I will make some coments on the debate however [img]smile.gif[/img] .

The post above attempts to win an argument by the association of negatives. It says that if people are sceptical of faith healers / crystals etc (count me on your side there Magik) then by association they must be sceptical of chiropractors.

This type of association argument is repeated several posts lower when talking of licenses - again the association is between chiropractors (who some believe have validity) and psychics etc (who most people would believe have none).

The associations that were made are not "scientific" means of winning this debate. You could just as easily say MagiK is a member of IW, Davros is a member of IW, MagiK and Davros have the same views on everything (ROFLOLWP - just don't think so somehow ).

Getting away from the "guilt by association" argument, I would agree with the point that Magik made about a good massage being pretty much as therapeutic as the spinal manipulation. Lots of benefits to relaxing the muscles in the same region, because a lot of the inflammation tends to be coming from these rarely used muscles being in a near constant state of tension (ie stiffening up to try and support the area and unconciously reduce the pain).

Chiropractors are pretty much entrenched in our society now - but like lawyers (sorry TL ), they are people you would rather go through life avoiding the need for.

[ 02-07-2003, 09:20 PM: Message edited by: Davros ]

[Sir Taliesin]

Originally posted by Attalus: But, how would you know if your brother wouldn't be well if he hadn't had his back popped? All of the studies cited were patient histories, practice logs, etc. I,e., anecdotal, hence nonverifiable. No double blind, prospective studies have ever shown benefit for chiropractic. The judge, being a man of law, rather than a man of science, rendered a terrible decision, IMHO, leaving the door open for all sorts of insurance scams.

Most insurance companies recognize and pay for chiropratic services. Sorry Attalus, but I had never been to one until my personal physican recommended one to me. At that point I'd been hurting rather severilly for about three weeks. I hurt from my lower back down around the left side of my hip and then down around to the front of my knee. Drugs helped, but I hate taking them. I wasn't getting any better. I went to see the Chiroprator and was back feeling fine in three days. Insurance paid for it all. He has helped me every time I've hurt my back, which is usually once or twice a year. Is that scientifically verifiable? Nope, it's anecdotal, but it's enough for me!

Majik, we'll just agree to disagree. My chiroprator has helped me a lot. What would help me even more is if I lost about 100 pounds, but as of yet, I haven't seen any pigs with wings, flying through the air, so I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon.

Believers will always believe nomatter what evidence is produced [img]smile.gif[/img] But I refuse to accept testimonials and anecdotes as proof!

Anyway, I anxiously await to see what Penn and Teller choose to debunk next [img]smile.gif[/img] I think the show is at the very least a public service

[Aelia Jusa]

Originally posted by Attalus: But, how would you know if your brother wouldn't be well if he hadn't had his back popped?

Surely you could raise that question with many treatments GPs prescribe, knowing what we do about the placebo effect, and the stories (yes, anecdotal, but they still happened) of people who have not been given drugs, or refused drugs when all advice was to have them, getting better on their own. What about people who get a cold and trot off to the doctor and ask for antibiotics, and the doctor dutifully writes out a script? They certainly would have got better on their own.

My dad injured his knee a few years ago playing squash. He went to his GP who said he'd need surgery. He then went to his chiropractor, and after 4 or so appointments, his knee was better, and hasn't been a problem since. Now in this case, it is irrelevant whether or not his knee would have got better on its own. What is important is that if he'd followed the GP's advice, couched in wonderful science as it was, he would have had surgery, which, as the evidence shows, was unnecessary.

[Aelia Jusa]

Originally posted by MagiK: I staged a test once a long time ago...I was about 18 or so and had a friend who was being suckered by a chirop[ractor for a lot of cash, I set up an appointment, told him I had lower back pain....turns out low and behold I had one leg longer than the other causing a misalignment. I thought this quite odd since Ihad no lower back pain. See anecdotal evidence says this guy was a shyster....so were the other two I visited for free exams at the mall....only problem was that no two could agee on which leg was longer

I wonder what would have happened if you'd gone to a few GPs with your pretend lower back pain? Now I can't say for sure because I haven't participated in any entrapment schemes like this ( [img]tongue.gif[/img] ), but I imagine they would also try to find what was wrong and alleviate your pain. They might give you anti-inflamatories, or send you off for an MRI or something. Surprisingly enough, people in the business of healing aren't usually expecting people to come in with fabricated injuries in order to catch them out trying to heal them

[Bardan the Slayer]

Originally posted by Attalus: But, how would you know if your brother wouldn't be well if he hadn't had his back popped? All of the studies cited were patient histories, practice logs, etc. I,e., anecdotal, hence nonverifiable. No double blind, prospective studies have ever shown benefit for chiropractic. The judge, being a man of law, rather than a man of science, rendered a terrible decision, IMHO, leaving the door open for all sorts of insurance scams.

Because an x-ray of his back showed a double prolapse of the spine and displacement of two disks. If it had been any worse, the docs would have recommended surgery to fix it. He only went to the GP (and then the chiropracter) after leaving it to heal by itself for a month. While he left it to heal naturally it actually got worse, since his weight was accentuating the unnatural double-curve. Only when he got physiological treatment from a chiropractor did it begin to heal. [img]smile.gif[/img]