Wimp Monk

[Dundee Slaytern]

I never said powergamers had the moral authority. That said, neither did I say that they abused bugs, they abuse loopholes.

Lawyers abuse loopholes, but is what they do illegal? Why no! It is all perfectly legal, because the loophole exist. A loophole becomes a bug only when the laws change, ala game patches.

Note, this is a very general definition. Loopholes that defy reason are not called cheats or bugs, they are called cheese( which happens to come in two flavours too, logical and non-logical). A perfectly good example is the Cloudkill Cheese Anti-Dragon Tactic in BG2. It is not a cheat, but neither is it logical. It is non-logical cheese.

Logical cheese are overpowered logical tactics, like the Bunny-Nuke Tactic in BG2.

I stray from the path though, as Kakero never exploited a bug in the first place anyway, unless you decide that allowing the gamer to distribute his/her stat points is considered a bug( which I highly doubt so, as the game designers were the ones who allowed it to happen knowingly).

Ergo, my point still stands, Kakero is merely powergaming legally, and is not cheating in any way. I do empathise with the feeling though, when you feel somebody is borderline cheating( not you Kakero ), as I do wring my hands in the air whenever somebody boasts about the Cloudkill Cheese, but well... it is not cheating.

What you play as what is known as a roleplaying powergamer, a marriage and compromise between the two. You powergame only within the realm of roleplaying. True pureclassed powergamers though, throw all sense of roleplaying out of the window.

PS: Casting Magic Resistance to lower a person's magic resistance is perfectly valid( it sets your MR, not add to it). The spell description even warns you about it. The only cheese about it was that the Dragons did nothing to stop you. An AI weakness, and nothing more. [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 01-15-2003, 11:15 PM: Message edited by: Dundee Slaytern ]

[Dundee Slaytern]

Originally posted by Mitro Jellywadder: I liked Dundee's explanation better. We only had two categories. Now, I have to try and figure out between exploiting, cheating, or being a powermonger... Dundee: Good to see you're still around and kicking

I generally sit on the sidelines now as a coach, only coming out to correct the BG2 regulars when they make a mistake, or post some trivia/new tactic.

[Grojlach]

Originally posted by the sauceman: The man is trying to play a GAME the best way he knows how, dont beat him up because he isnt playing the game the way you think the game should be played. Shame on you all!

*shakes head*
With those stats, like Luvian said, you're not even capable of making complete sentences. That the game still allows you to conversate with others is a flaw and a should-be-bug (though I doubt Bioware had the time and effort to implement something like "ghhwwq hwww twwgh" as an option for every single conversation and fitting answers so characters with an intelligence of 3 could actually play in-character, or to make npc's run away in fear or immediately turn hostile because of your charisma of 3 ). Exploiting it is mostly a conscience matter, and that's why I called it silly to use those low stats; I never said it was wrong.

[ 01-16-2003, 06:44 AM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

[J'aran]

Originally posted by Grojlach: though I doubt Bioware had the time and effort to implement something like "ghhwwq hwww twwgh" as an option for every single conversation and fitting answers so characters with an intelligence of 3 could actually play in-character, or to make npc's run away in fear or immediately turn hostile because of your charisma of 3

Troika Games did just that in Arcanum. The dialogue options for my Half-Ogre pit fighter with INT 1 always cracked me up.

NPC: "Who are you?"
Ogre: "I'm me."
NPC: "No, you idiot. Your NAME! What's your name?!"
Ogre: "You funny guy."
NPC: "You're hopeless, aren't you? I'm amazed you're even able to form intelligble words."
Ogre: "Uhrr... gaaaah."

Connverstions were always more or less like that with that particular character.

[Luvian]

Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern: I never said powergamers had the moral authority. That said, neither did I say that they abused bugs, they abuse loopholes. Lawyers abuse loopholes, but is what they do illegal? Why no! It is all perfectly legal, because the loophole exist. A loophole becomes a bug only when the laws change, ala game patches. Note, this is a very general definition. Loopholes that defy reason are not called cheats or bugs, they are called cheese( which happens to come in two flavours too, logical and non-logical). A perfectly good example is the Cloudkill Cheese Anti-Dragon Tactic in BG2. It is not a cheat, but neither is it logical. It is non-logical cheese. Logical cheese are overpowered logical tactics, like the Bunny-Nuke Tactic in BG2. I stray from the path though, as Kakero never exploited a bug in the first place anyway, unless you decide that allowing the gamer to distribute his/her stat points is considered a bug( which I highly doubt so, as the game designers were the ones who allowed it to happen knowingly). Ergo, my point still stands, Kakero is merely powergaming legally, and is not cheating in any way. I do empathise with the feeling though, when you feel somebody is borderline cheating( not you Kakero ), as I do wring my hands in the air whenever somebody boasts about the Cloudkill Cheese, but well... it is not cheating. What you play as what is known as a roleplaying powergamer, a marriage and compromise between the two. You powergame only within the realm of roleplaying. True pureclassed powergamers though, throw all sense of roleplaying out of the window. PS: Casting Magic Resistance to lower a person's magic resistance is perfectly valid( it sets your MR, not add to it). The spell description even warns you about it. The only cheese about it was that the Dragons did nothing to stop you. An AI weakness, and nothing more. [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img]

I consider min/maxing to be an exploit of the game engine, because even if you created a character with 3 in every attributes, you, the player, could still choose every dialog option that make your character act in a wise and intelligent way, and have him acting the most social way. That's definitely an engine weakness.

If the game was like J'aran said, then it would certainly not be an exploit. You lower your intelligence, you suffer the consequence, but it's not the case, here. The Devs where innocent enough to think players would act in a way fitting to their character.

But you're right, it's very cheesy. That's what annoy me so much.

[xanderwatts]

I have to say I do not generally powergame, but it's not fair to come to down on this player merely for suggesting that improving certain stats would improve the monks damage. I try give all my characters at least 10 (average), even in attributes that are not vital to their class. The reason I do this is that I am a roleplayer. I always try to justify a reason, that works within the game world, for my characters doing what they do. Now, I can't see why people who are below average in any attribute would succeed as adventurers. Take the plot of IWD 2.(minor, back of box style spoilers) Your characters are originally mercenaries. Would anyone want to pay them if one of the group is a revolting pustule (min. CHA, a tank fighter say), or looked so weak that they can barely hold their staff (Sorc/Mage with min strength). Would anyone living person knowingly hire a madman (in 3ed. D&D rules very low WIS means madness). No.
Take my drow sorceror. He is my party's diplomat. He has a high charisma, and lots of diplomacy, and associated feats. Getting a discount is not the only reason, and nor is access to extra spells per day, and high level spells. The reason is that he is neutral good, and has escaped the underdark to find a peaceful life on the surface. If he could not convince people he meant well then he would have been swiftly mobbed, and hung out to dry, hence his high charisma.

Anyway, you've all missed the point, the question is apperently being asked in a midgame situation. It's too late to go back and change the stats, without using the Cheat console, or whatever the IWD2 equivalent of Shadowkeeper is, and that WOULD be cheating.

PS, is there a Shadowkeeper for IWD 2 out yet?

[Luvian]

Yes there is one, but I'm leaving for a few hours, I don't have time to dig up the link. Use the board search, it's called Dale Keeper II I think.

[Luvian]

Ok, here's the link:

http://www.mud-master.com/forum/inde...art=0#lastPost

[Dmouse]

I totally agree. Having a minimum amount of points to each stats justifies what the character wants to be. Like wise i have had experience in AD&D before and my dungeon master always advices us to put at least 10 points to each stats or higher to play. Its pointless if you are a mage and you have 2 strength points in there trying to hit someone with a staff or a dagger. Anyway, all is said and done in here and i think most of us like to play this game as an extension of our AD&D gaming outside the computer gaming world. So we tend to relate to each character as though there was a dungeon master around and not just as a gaming engine.

[Grojlach]

Originally posted by Dmouse: Its pointless if you are a mage and you have 2 strength points in there trying to hit someone with a staff or a dagger.

A mage with a strength of only two probably wouldn't even be able to carry a spellbook, I think...