Dungeons & Dragons... Satans Game...

[Malavon's Rage]

I know we're keeping this thread pretty on check but...

has anyone ever heard Dr. Dementos little sketch about D&D? It's basically making fun of those who think its such a bad thing. here's an excerpt...


I wanna cast magic missile!
But there's nothing to attack here...
uh...I'm attacking the darkness!
(hahahaha)
Ok, there's an elf standing in front of you.
(ewww...awww)
hey that's me right?
yeah that's you.
ok you guys can go ahead and talk now.
"Hello, I am Golstaff, sorcerer of light!"
"then why did you have to cast magic missile?"
(hahaha)


That's just a little bit of it, if you ever hear it, it's pretty funny

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by SpiritWarrior: But why is using your imagination considered evil now? I suppose Tolkien was satanic too, and all fantasy novelists for that matter. I am sick and tired of hearing stuff like that to be honest cuz it makes me so livid. Open your bloody mind for once in your lives, world.

You are being just as guilty of being closed-minded with this rant as the Christian Life Ministries are with theirs, SpiritWarrior.

They don't object to D&D because it encourages people to use their imaginations...they object to it because it involves (or can involve) elements of demonology, witchcraft, pagan worship, and the occult in general. The Bible warns us to be on our guard against spiritual warfare because it occurs on a daily basis and participating in a game that actively encourages the exploration of some of the topics I listed would definitely be a "bad thing" for a Christian to be involved in. So their concern is legitimate, even though it is misguided and uninformed.

I get upset when I see comments like this made towards AD&D, especially by people that haven't actually "researched" the game. But as a Christian, I get equally upset when others make the same broad accusations against Christians and claim that they don't want people having open minds or thinking for themselves. I'm sorry, but that shows just as much ignorance of the facts from the other side. I assume you are not a Christian nor a "church goer"...therefore, I must also assume that your "knowledge" of why Christian groups object to such things is second-hand at best. Slicer15 gave the perfect explanation of why AD&D can potentially be a bad game for a Christian to play. PnP games are very addictive and extremely time consuming. But as a Christian, we are supposed to set a part of each day aside for God. When I played PnP, I found myself pushing that time to the side to make more time for AD&D. THAT'S why I felt like I had to quit playing the game - because I wasn't being true to my Christian values and obligations....NOT because I was "using my imagination" to play an evil game.

I understand why comments like the one at the beginning of this thread make you angry. Just make sure that you don't succomb to the temptation to strike back and make inaccurate and spiteful accusations in retaliation. That puts you on the same level as those you are ranting against.

[SpiritWarrior]

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: quote: Originally posted by SpiritWarrior: But why is using your imagination considered evil now? I suppose Tolkien was satanic too, and all fantasy novelists for that matter. I am sick and tired of hearing stuff like that to be honest cuz it makes me so livid. Open your bloody mind for once in your lives, world.

You are being just as guilty of being closed-minded with this rant as the Christian Life Ministries are with theirs, SpiritWarrior.

They don't object to D&D because it encourages people to use their imaginations...they object to it because it involves (or can involve) elements of demonology, witchcraft, pagan worship, and the occult in general. The Bible warns us to be on our guard against spiritual warfare because it occurs on a daily basis and participating in a game that actively encourages the exploration of some of the topics I listed would definitely be a "bad thing" for a Christian to be involved in. So their concern is legitimate, even though it is misguided and uninformed.
I get upset when I see comments like this made towards AD&D, especially by people that haven't actually "researched" the game. But as a Christian, I get equally upset when others make the same broad accusations against Christians and claim that they don't want people having open minds or thinking for
themselves. I'm sorry, but that shows just as much ignorance of the facts from the other side. I assume you are not a Christian nor a "church goer"...therefore, I must also assume that your "knowledge" of why Christian groups object to such things is second-hand at best. Slicer15 gave the perfect explanation of why AD&D can potentially be a bad game for a Christian to play. PnP games are very addictive and extremely time consuming. But as a Christian, we are supposed to set a part of each day aside for God. When I played PnP, I found myself pushing that time to the side to make more time for AD&D. THAT'S why I felt like I had to quit playing the game - because I wasn't being true to my Christian values and obligations....NOT because I was "using my imagination" to play an evil game.

I understand why comments like the one at the beginning of this thread make you angry. Just make sure that you don't succomb to the temptation to strike back and make inaccurate and spiteful accusations in retaliation. That puts you on the same level as those you are ranting against. [/QUOTE]You have articulated my anger well and I see your point. I was trying not to lash out at christianity in general as the moderators said and AFAIK I didn't (it was aimed at people in general). I am simply sick of hearing about it from those who are misinformed like you said, and cannot make an appropriate judgement due to their lack of research/knowledge of the subject.

Your assumption about my only experience being second-hand is incorrect however, as some of my best friends are christians and being irish I grew up in a firmly catholic family. I remember the day my mother picked up the Players Handbook in my room and began leafing through the pages pausing on the pictures and making comments like "That does not look right to me". Basically I had to go through the whole system and purpose of the book and explain to her how I am not worshipping the devil and I resented her for it. At the time I was 13 and had to convince her but now that I am older my reply would be "It does to me" [img]smile.gif[/img] . Then I have to hear this crap in the media about how it leads to satan-worship. We all know It's crap, anyone regardless of religion who is here now at IW knows that these people are wrong. They are objecting to it based on a stereotypical and ignorant perception of a given sect, that of which they daren't explore past the taboo. Harry Potter books were said to do the same thing.

Also Paganism is huge and I can't see why that would be a bad thing if someone were to convert to it as opposed to any other religion. As for Demonism etc. they're all religions and belief systems...to me all I see is someone feeling threatened and lashing out saying "Ours is the right one, yours isn't". I have no right to judge anothers spirituality regardless of how personally distasteful it may seem to me, and I'd expect that from everyone else too. That doesn't help anyone does it? You don't see me telling people that going to church leads to worship of God and that this is bad..I butt out cuz I figure and live by the mantra "Each to their own".

This is no knock to any religion in particular so please people don't come in with weapons armed ready to defend your church or system of belief. Rather it is simply a vain wish that people would just grow up and get on with their lives rather than worrying about what everyone else is doing [img]smile.gif[/img] .

[ 12-23-2003, 04:23 AM: Message edited by: SpiritWarrior ]

[wellard]

Originally posted by SpiritWarrior: Rather it is simply a vain wish that people would just grow up and get on with their lives rather than worrying about what everyone else is doing [img]smile.gif[/img] .

Amen brother [img]tongue.gif[/img]

That about sums it up! each to there own!

You know reading this thread wants me to start playing D&D again. Something ive not done for 15 or more years. [img]graemlins/heee.gif[/img] Its the same with the Harry Potter books, as soon as people shout them down the better they sell. Weird aint it????

[Cerek the Barbaric]

SpiritWarrior - Just wanted to let you know that I took no offense at your post. Like I said, I understand your anger. Believe me, I hear those same arguments quite a bit since I am an active Christian and a Southern Baptist to boot. I do stand corrected on my incorrect assumption that your information about Christians was second-hand.

In many ways, I was more fortunate in that I didn't develop an interest in AD&D until I was in college. So - even though my mom didn't like it - she knew she couldn't keep me from playing since I was an adult. I respected her opinion, but also respectfully disagreed with it.

The mistake most Christians make is not examining things like this for themselves. Too many just accept the views and opinions of those they considered to be more knowledgeable about the subject than themselves. Many of them would say something like "Well, if Christian Life Ministries said it was bad and that it entails ALL those various things they listed, then it really must be bad". Let's face it, it is easier to let somebody else "do the work" and then take their word for it.

Because of my experience with AD&D, I always check things out for myself. Now that might include asking other Christians what they think of a the item in question, but in the end, I make my own decisions.

For example, I wouldn't let my oldest son collect Pokemon cards for awhile because they were also supposed to be "bad". So I finally went online and looked up different Christian sites and read their objections the game. The more I read, the more familiar the arguments sounded..and the more I became convinced they weren't based on genuine research. So I changed my mind and let him have the Pokemon cards. Now we have several videos and even the N64 Pokemon Stadium game. When he developed an interest in Yu-Gi-Oh cards, I let him go ahead and get them. But when he opened them and I started reading the literature that came with the game, my wife and I BOTH became very uncomfortable with the amount of occultic references in the game (FAR more than even AD&D has...because any "occultic" references could be avoided in AD&D, but they can't in Yu-Gi-Oh). So I got rid of the cards. A few months later, my son kept asking if I would re-consider the Yu-Gi-Oh cards. I decided to give them a second chance...but it only confirmed my earlier misgivings. So Yu-Gi-Oh cards are not allowed in our house.

As for the Harry Potter books, I have no opinion one way or the other because my sons haven't expressed ANY interest in them at all. I did have a good Christian friend (whose opinion I respect) tell me that he had actually told his kids they needed to read the books (even though they didn't particularly want to). His wife got upset about it and he got one of the books and started to read it himself. Within the first few pages, he found references to witchcraft that made him uncomfortable with the book, so he agreed with his wife and told his son he didn't have to read them. By the same token, many of my former AD&D buddies are also Christians - and they absolutely LOVE Harry Potter. So if my kids ever develop an interest, I'll have to check it out for myself (although I would be more inclined to allow them since I enjoy fantasy books so much anyway).

As for those who choose to practice witchcraft, or explore the occult, or decide to embrace a pagan religion...I disagree with their choice on a personal level, but I respect their right to follow whichever path they decide is best for them. Because of this attitude, I've developed friendships with many members here on IW that are pagans and others that practice witchcraft in one form or another. We disagree on a theological level, but that doesn't mean we can't still be friends.

[wellard]

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric:

The mistake most Christians make is not examining things like this for themselves. Too many just accept the views and opinions of those they considered to be more knowledgeable about the subject than themselves. Many of them would say something like "Well, if Christian Life Ministries said it was bad and that it entails ALL those various things they listed, then it really must be bad". Let's face it, it is easier to let somebody else "do the work" and then take their word for it.

spot on CEREK! thje same goes in reverse for me I guess. When I hear that a religous organisation is calling for a banning or restriction of something I automatically opose them without finding out the facts.

We disagree on a theological level, but that doesn't mean we can't still be friends.

And that attitude is why I always read your posts. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] good stuff Cerek

But to stay on the D&D theme. Would not letting a young boy or tenager play a cleric or holy warrior character using his mind and passion in finding a way to defeat a evil mage or demon be a good thing? a chance for him to act out in a "Christian way" rather than some cebral and lets face it sometimes tedious (at that age)prayer meeting. Its a chance to show amongst the childs non Christian peers that leading a good life and saving some town from disaster and opression can be a heroic act and that being religous can be exciting. I guess what i'm trying to say is, why not embrace D&D and use it for the churches advantage much the same way as music is used?

[Zuvio]

Originally posted by wellard: quote: Originally posted by SpiritWarrior: Rather it is simply a vain wish that people would just grow up and get on with their lives rather than worrying about what everyone else is doing [img]smile.gif[/img] .

Amen brother [img]tongue.gif[/img]

That about sums it up! each to there own!

You know reading this thread wants me to start playing D&D again. Something ive not done for 15 or more years. [img]graemlins/heee.gif[/img] Its the same with the Harry Potter books, as soon as people shout them down the better they sell. Weird aint it???? [/QUOTE]
I dont like Harry Potter because of the kid that plays him. Does that count too?

[Larry_OHF]

My brother-in-law told me that when he and his brothers and friends were getting into D&D, their father only had one rule. They had to play Good aligned characters. If anyone was caught playing Neutral or lower...that kid was banned from the game.

Just a little background...in his teenage years, before the vietnam war...my father-in-law was aspiring to become a Baptist preacher. So you can see where he was coming from.

I think that rule of his is a good one for children.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by wellard: But to stay on the D&D theme. Would not letting a young boy or tenager play a cleric or holy warrior character using his mind and passion in finding a way to defeat a evil mage or demon be a good thing? a chance for him to act out in a "Christian way" rather than some cebral and lets face it sometimes tedious (at that age)prayer meeting. Its a chance to show amongst the childs non Christian peers that leading a good life and saving some town from disaster and opression can be a heroic act and that being religous can be exciting. I guess what i'm trying to say is, why not embrace D&D and use it for the churches advantage much the same way as music is used?

Not really, Wellard. Even good-aligned clerics are still casting spells to accomplish their goals and that is nnot a practice that is acceptable in the church. In fact, it would be somewhat confusing, IMHO.

Fortunately, my church has a very good children's program. We have a member do a children's message very early in the service, then the kids can leave the main sanctuary and go back to the Sunday School rooms for Children's Church. They are grouped according to age and the instructors have age-specific activities for them to do that are fun, yet still help illustrate the lesson they are teaching that day.

There is nothing wrong with playing a cleric or holy warrior, but it really doesn't cross-over very well to applying Christian values in their daily lives. Then again, maybe I'm just not clever enough to figure out a way to make the cross-over work.

[SpiritWarrior]

Originally posted by Larry_OHF: My brother-in-law told me that when he and his brothers and friends were getting into D&D, their father only had one rule. They had to play Good aligned characters. If anyone was caught playing Neutral or lower...that kid was banned from the game. Just a little background...in his teenage years, before the vietnam war...my father-in-law was aspiring to become a Baptist preacher. So you can see where he was coming from. I think that rule of his is a good one for children.

Well this is a matter of opinion Larry, some may say if they don't explore the darker side to life in a contained environment such as a game they will eventually do it IRL...drugs, violence etc. Light and dark exist and I think kids should embrace and accept both, then choose and act accordingly. Things tend to get messy when they are sheltered, shielded, censored and curtailed in their exposure. That said, there is a level of temperance involved in the amount of exposure and I believe that is what parenting is all about: asessing what they are ready for and when, rather than pretending it does not exist - just my two cents.