Survey of 44 nations shows growing discontent over U.S.

Barry, you got it wrong there guy, Governments do not "GIVE" rights, they can but acknowledge them. Some countries do, others do not, the ones that do not, are called repressive and dictatorial.

[Gammit]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Grungi:

"its america with the arrogant attitude"

and then I see

"as im concerned were all equal, were all civilised countries..."

so basically, you're saying "you suck! but can't we all just get along?"
Perhaps your second statement would be more believable without the first. Yell at one American's arrogance, fine, but don't say "you all are ______" and then claim to be a proponent of fairness.

BTW, Scholarcs, I'm glad that we agree that NOBODY is the enemy!!!

[ 12-05-2002, 12:10 PM: Message edited by: Gammit ]

[Borvik]

Well, well, well, I love IW!
I was a little bit sceptic about this thread and what could happen here. But my worries were obsolete [img]smile.gif[/img]
It's good to see that you can have different opinions, discuss them, still have different opinions but always have respect for each other. And it's good to see that it's no matter of culture ore whatever [img]graemlins/yippee.gif[/img] The world is becoming smaller every day and that's the spirit we need!

Barry: Start the thread. I'd love to learn something about that

[Timber Loftis]

Grungi, contrary to what you believe, I'm not attacking Euros (people, not the currency) or anyone else for that matter. I do notice a trend however, that when I've travelled in Europe, US folks are generally seen as uninformed and unconcerned with the rest of the world - which translates into a certain I-dont-give-a-damn arrogance. But, those same Euros have always had an intellectual aloofness that is embedded in that very perception of Americans.

Plus, when talking to people, I have noticed that both on the international level, newspaper level, and the man-on-the-street level, the U.S. faces a damned-if-it-does, damned-if-it-doesn't attitude. The US is expected to be the world's police force, yet not use too much force, and not ever be greedy, and not look out for its own people. Sheesh. But, as you said, that's not on the person-to-person level.

I've never met someone from another country, especially European countries, who I didn't like for any reason that was based on their country of origin. And, I've many-a-time had folks I've run into abroad tell me that I changed their perceptions of Americans. I think the only person-to-person disliking that goes on is on the "theoretical" level - meaning what people take umbrage with is not the particular person but rather the stereotype they have of that person. In sum, I think the heated debate tit-for-tats on this forum between the two parties on opposite sides of the Atlantic pond translate into imaginary-stereotype-person-bashing that actual dislike between the two folks engaged in the discussion.

So, we're back to comparing the "outward appearance and attitude" of the nation itself (i.e. the stereotype) and its average-joe-as-percieved-by-others (again, a stereotype).

McDonald's coffee case - I defer, too long to do, but someday I will post on GD explaining exactly why that case made complete and total sense, and I will point out the one (unchangeable) flow in both the Euro and American legal system that, if we could change it, would make these cases much better. In short, McDonald's didn't get hit for large $$$$ because that's what the lady deserved. Rather, McDonald's got hit for large $$$$ in PUNITIVE damages, which are meant to PUNISH the wrongdoer (and McD's coffee has been way too hot for way too long - and they do it that way to discourage refills). When punshing someone as large as McDonald's, you gotta hit 'em big. The particular lady in that case was merely a beneficiary of the judicial system punishing McD's in an amount that was meant to hurt. Furhter, the court later reduced the award by LOTS - but no one noticed because that was not front page news. I'll get into the details of this some other day. As you can see, it's long.

But, my overall point was that, even though it's the most charitable nation on Earth, the US is demonized. Sorry, but I think it's at least somewhat attributable to jealousy rather than justification.

BARRY:
As for the FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS discussion [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] - I'm happy to start another thread. I'll attempt it tomorrow, as I have not the time nor the article which inspired my comment today.

[ 12-05-2002, 12:13 PM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

[johnny]

TL, of all the good things you could have mentioned about the US, you just had to bring up it's legal law system, didn't you ? Well, imho that's NOT one of the things you should be proud of. Let me put it like this: if i was a lawyer in the US, i'd feel like a horny teenager in a massage salon. That wasn't the best example you could have picked. [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]

[Timber Loftis]

Thanks for the poke at my profession, Johnny. I'll pick my battles where I choose, thank you.

As for my choice, I prefer to pick something that seems more untennable and then support it. If I can champion the US Legal System, it's much easier to show how other more-palettable portions of the US government and society are also good examples of a good society.

It's very very fun to say something that seems unsupportable and then show how it is perfectly supportable.

Thanks for your advice on how to argue, though.

[johnny]

LOL TL, you're a lawyer ? ROFL I didn't know that dude, honest. So tell me, are there any good massage salons in your neighbourhood ?

[Grungi]

omg your supporting that whole coffee thing? dont you understand the whole point is 500,000 for a bit of hot coffee thats the perceived problem and that in itself means the next judge along thinks its okay to hit people with prices like that regardless of anything else, its stupid and out of control and proportion, you seriously believe some hot coffee is reason for 500,000 in court, your a lawyer then im guessing in need of work.

gammit i cannot help but put that (america with the arrogant attitude was badly phrased, it was the guy i was replying to with the arrogant attitude and he happens to be american), because hes throwing that arrogance in my face, as i said were all equal until you prove yourself to be less equal by upsetting that equality (in another thread, im losing track atm and assuming people are readying my other threads) someone coming to me with that arrogant attitude is immediately less equal IMO what i WANT to happen is for everyone to shut up and like each other, yes id like to see that, unfortunately im afraid the problem lies with the american arrogance thats the main reason people like me dont like em, but for that id like em, so stop the arrogance that your the best blah blah blah bollocks, and everyones happy. (btw when i say YOUR i mean ANYONE that is being arrogant that is NOT all americans, just the ones who are being, thats the people im having a go at, not anyone else)

for most people if someone else is being arrogant that annoys them and im afraid it annoys me too, im quite happy being hypocritical though and being arrogant on occasion myself, but im well aware it annoys people so i try and avoid it where possible.

[Grungi]

ahhhh so you are a lawyer then? well there ya go that explains that response then, go on i want to hear your argument about how the thief was in the right to sue then for falling in a pond in someones fenced garden which he was trying to rob.....

Originally posted by Grungi: as i said were all equal until you prove yourself to be less equal by upsetting that equality

Isn't it really nice when you get to set yourself up as judge, jurry and executioner?