Pagan coven seeks hate crime charges vs Christian group

[Yorick]

Originally posted by AzureWolf: quote: Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by Arnabas: I always find it strange that more women aren't into paganism. Why support a patriarchal system that for so long considered women lesser than men, when they could turn to a religion that values the feminine so highly?

That's a rather simplistic look at why people "turn to a religion".[/QUOTE]But its also quite an understandable one. Why would you rather stay with a religion where you were considered inferior to men?[/QUOTE]Christian women aren't considered inferior to Christian men.

But that's not the point. The point is, someone converting has very little to do with "Hmm, I'd like to pick a religion. I wonder which one I'll choose..... hmm, well, I'm a man, so I guess I'll go with a religion that has a male diety. Yes, and perhaps one with a god of music, because I'm one too....."

People convert (to Christ) for numerous reasons, but by and large simply because he moves them. Touches them. He chooses us. He communicates with us. All we have to do is be willing to listen.

That's the point I'm making. The first above example is someone creating their own concept of a "god" because of who they are, instead of being open to discover who he really is. With an open mind.

The poster showed a lack of understanding of the mechanisms involved in conversion. But then that's nothing new.

If I had a dollar for every post I read on internet forums, where athiests post their opinions of Christians motives - despite, as not being one, having no experience of the said motive - I would be a rich man.

I wonder what qualifies the naysayers as experts on the motivations of people they don't understand?

[ 05-04-2002, 02:24 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Arnabas: Yorik, Just my personal thoughts. I would have a hard time subscribing to a religion that implied I was somehow "lesser" to another, or worse, that women are the root of all our troubles (Eve).

What? How on earth did you reach that conclusion? No Christian teacher will ever draw that out of that story! Eve is in NO WAY considered the root of trouble! In the same story you'll find God having a go at Adam for trying to shift the blame onto Eve and by default back on God. Classic double shift.

"The WOMAN, YOU gave me, did this"

Where did you come across this other idea?

Besides, the idea that everything went "wrong" in the garden of eden is an immature theology.

If you look at it with a bigger Christian perspective, human sin, enables God to show an abundance of love he otherwise couldn't.

Forgiveness is love with a cost.

Dying in place of another is an extreme display of love.

For me, the Garden of eden is where the beauty started to unfold. So if we take a view that Eve is responsible for anything, it would be that she enabled us to experience Christs appearance, love and grace.

Finally you are ignoring the serpent in the equation, and the belief that human sin was inevitable.

So no matter which way you look at it, Eve is not being blamed for mans sin. We all have reponsibility for our own actions. No-one "makes us do anything." If someone holds a gun to our head, and says, "do this or die" we can choose to perform the action and live.

That's part of the message of that story. Empowerment, not blame.

[Pangur Ban]

Can't resist throwing in my 2c worth ..

It is lucky for some Christians that Wiccans *don't* have the power and/or inclination to do some of the things they are accused of doing !!

[Neb]

Originally posted by Pangur Ban: Can't resist throwing in my 2c worth .. It is lucky for some Christians that Wiccans *don't* have the power and/or inclination to do some of the things they are accused of doing!!

Yeah, now help me with the goat's blood pentagram and the sacrificial virgin. It's payback time! [img]graemlins/firedevil.gif[/img]

Just kidding [img]tongue.gif[/img] Any Wiccan worth his salt knows that you make a REAL pentagram with human blood.... [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Arnabas]

I am simply going by what I was taught as a kid...
There is also the interesting quote that while it is good to go forth and multiply, it is better for a man not to touch a woman, so that he can stay "pure".
If that doen't imply something bad about women, I don't know what does.

[Ar-Cunin]

Origanilly posted by Yorrick: If I had a dollar for every post I read on internet forums, where athiests post their opinions of Christians motives - despite, as not being one, having no experience of the said motive - I would be a rich man. I wonder what qualifies the naysayers as experts on the motivations of people they don't understand?

I wonder about exatly the same - only directed at the "yea-sayers"

And yes - I'm an atheist

[ 05-04-2002, 02:29 PM: Message edited by: Ar-Cunin ]

[Arnabas]

I agree with what Yorick said about why a person chooses a religion (or to be an atheist). It is a matter of faith and following what you know to be true. I was raised Christian, but I never really felt comfortable with it. I always believed in spirits and magic and felt a close tie to nature and this is what led me to paganism. I do have an open mind. Enough of one to realize that my beliefs aren't totally "right"-- they are just right for me. Each person has their own inner truth that they must live by. I just don't like being told I am a sinner for having different thoughts. Yorick, I actually respect you, as I do anyone who can debate their beliefs intelligently without resorting to "I'm right and that's all there is to it". I like debate. I like having my beliefs challenged. It might surprise you that I actually do believe in Christ as well. I think he was a great man and a great teacher. But I think that some of what he said has been taken the wrong way. If we can easily misunderstand and distort the words of man, how much easier for us to fail to understand the thoughts of divinity? (Although I believe Christ to have been a normal man, I do believe he was in touch with the divine.)
As for the women thing... Remember that Lilith was cast out for not being submissive to Adam and that all women were cursed to suffer the pain of menstruation and childbirth as a result.
I have nothing against Christianity, though. I worked one summer in a church and loved it. The priest didn't care that I was pagan. I loved him. He was great. I remember one time when two girls were walking by on a just-washed floor. One slipped, almost fell, and screamed "Oh my God!!!" I have known other priests who would get upset at this, but this guy just smiled and said "well, if it makes them pray, we must do that more often" He was a sweet, kind, funny man. I respected him and his beliefs and he respected me and mine. I wish everyone could be that way.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Arnabas: I am simply going by what I was taught as a kid... There is also the interesting quote that while it is good to go forth and multiply, it is better for a man not to touch a woman, so that he can stay "pure". If that doen't imply something bad about women, I don't know what does.

Then maybe you need to learn for yourself as an adult.

The Apostle Paul says it's good for a man (or woman) not to marry, because it can split a persons focus on their ministry. It then IMMEDIATELY say's words to the effect of "But if you feel the need, go and get married."

Nothing to do with impurity.

It's a good idea if you're going to start quoting the bible (or misquoting) that you put a more clear definition of where it's from.

[ 05-04-2002, 05:02 PM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Arnabas: I agree with what Yorick said about why a person chooses a religion (or to be an atheist). It is a matter of faith and following what you know to be true. I was raised Christian, but I never really felt comfortable with it. I always believed in spirits and magic and felt a close tie to nature and this is what led me to paganism. I do have an open mind. Enough of one to realize that my beliefs aren't totally "right"-- they are just right for me. Each person has their own inner truth that they must live by. I just don't like being told I am a sinner for having different thoughts. Yorick, I actually respect you, as I do anyone who can debate their beliefs intelligently without resorting to "I'm right and that's all there is to it". I like debate. I like having my beliefs challenged. It might surprise you that I actually do believe in Christ as well. I think he was a great man and a great teacher. But I think that some of what he said has been taken the wrong way. If we can easily misunderstand and distort the words of man, how much easier for us to fail to understand the thoughts of divinity? (Although I believe Christ to have been a normal man, I do believe he was in touch with the divine.) As for the women thing... Remember that Lilith was cast out for not being submissive to Adam and that all women were cursed to suffer the pain of menstruation and childbirth as a result. I have nothing against Christianity, though. I worked one summer in a church and loved it. The priest didn't care that I was pagan. I loved him. He was great. I remember one time when two girls were walking by on a just-washed floor. One slipped, almost fell, and screamed "Oh my God!!!" I have known other priests who would get upset at this, but this guy just smiled and said "well, if it makes them pray, we must do that more often" He was a sweet, kind, funny man. I respected him and his beliefs and he respected me and mine. I wish everyone could be that way.

Great post Arnabas. Well said. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Ar-Cunin: quote: Origanilly posted by Yorrick: If I had a dollar for every post I read on internet forums, where athiests post their opinions of Christians motives - despite, as not being one, having no experience of the said motive - I would be a rich man. I wonder what qualifies the naysayers as experts on the motivations of people they don't understand?

I wonder about exatly the same - only directed at the "yea-sayers"

And yes - I'm an atheist[/QUOTE]1.Most of the yea-sayers have been naysayers.
2.The yea-sayers don't generally post on why athiests don't believe. In fact I've never read a post where a Christian has assumed to know why an athiest doesn't believe, yet I read countless posts from athiests saying that "Christians believe because they (insert ridicule here)"