Security guard who shot thief dead could face murder charges

[Memnoch]

Bashed guard kills attacker . Police expect to interview a female security guard in the next couple of days after a would-be thief was shot dead as he tried to flee with a bag of cash. . The guard, named by a Sydney newspaper as Karen Muratore, allegedly shot the robber as he tried to drive away with the weekend's takings from Sydney's Moorebank Hotel yesterday. . Ms Muratore, 40, who was bashed in the head with a knuckleduster, initially walked police through the incident but later refused to discuss the shooting until she sought legal advice. . Karen Muratore after being bashed in the head with a knuckleduster . "At this stage we have arranged an appointment to speak to her in the next couple of days when her barrister is available," Liverpool local area commander Terry Jacobsen said. . "Fundamentally, yesterday she was in no condition to be interviewed. . "She's taken the benefit of legal advice which she's entitled to, and we anticipate that we'll have an opportunity to speak to her with the counsel present in the next couple of days." . She was released from hospital yesterday. . Ms Muratore, who works for Elite Guard Force Security, was dressed in casual clothing and carrying the hotel's weekend takings in a backpack when she was attacked. . She has yet to be charged and Supt Jacobsen said it was too early to speculate whether she may face murder or manslaughter charges. . "I don't think it's reasonable at all to speculate on charges," he said. . "The police investigation will be comprehensive and at the end of that, when we know what the facts are, we'll make our decisions on a range of fronts." . . The earlier story... . July 27, 2004 . BLEEDING and bruised after being bashed and robbed, a security guard struggled to her feet and, in a lethal response, shot her attacker dead. . At 11am yesterday Karen Muratore was leaving the Moorebank Hotel in Sydney on a regular run for Elite Guard Force Security, carrying the hotel's takings in a backpack. . Dressed in casual clothes to appear inconspicuous and working alone, she was struck down with a knuckle-duster on the hotel steps by a thief who had been waiting in a stolen car. . Screaming at him to stop and with blood gushing down her face, the man, aged in his 20s, ignored her as he calmly walked to his vehicle to make a getaway. . Witnesses claim Ms Muratore then walked up to the closed door of the beige Ford Falcon and fired one shot through the side window, hitting the thief in the head. . Waitress Made Price, who was clearing tables at the restaurant in the hotel, watched horrified as Ms Muratore drew her gun at point-blank range and fired through the closed driver's window. . "At first we thought it was two junkies fighting," Mrs Price said. . "There was no struggle, nothing, he was just relaxed inside the car. When the bloke closed the door, the lady pulled out the gun ... and the lady just shot him. . "Maybe she was about 2m away." . Mrs Price said the thief did not have a chance to start the car. . Another witness heard Ms Muratore scream after she was set upon on the steps of the hotel, then a single gunshot. . Ernest Summerton was in the backyard of his McKay Ave home, which faces the hotel's carpark, and said: "I heard a woman screaming. It was a real long scream, then a shorter scream and then I heard a huge bang and knew it was a gunshot straight away." . Liverpool police Superintendent Terry Jacobsen said Ms Muratore was attacked in an attempted robbery, suffering facial injuries, at 11am. . He said police had not charged her and she had refused to talk about the incident at this stage. . Both Ms Muratore's pistol and a knuckle-duster were found at the scene. . Police were unable to determine the identity of the attacker, who was not carrying identification. . Ms Muratoe was released from Liverpool Hospital where she was treated for her injuries, with lawyers advising her not to talk to police. . She was followed to the hospital by police. . The Daily Telegraph contacted the Elite Guard Force Security head office yesterday but the owner refused to comment. An employee from the company said he had worked with Ms Muratore for at least two years. . "I can't really speak about it at the moment. I don't really have the details but she was bashed up pretty bad," the man, who did not wish to be named, said. . Source: www.news.com.au . Original article HERE

Without wishing to turn this into a gun debate (as this was a person legally entitled to bear arms) what do you guys think construe "justifiable force"? Was this guard entitled to shoot her attacker, considering it could be fair to assume that having already been robbed she was no longer in physical danger?

[ 07-27-2004, 07:32 AM: Message edited by: Memnoch ]

[Xen]

Well even if she shot him intentionally (shoot to kill) she could at least shot in his leg for example. But then again the was attacked (or so it seems from the article). Weird.

[JrKASperov]

If she shot the guy from point blank range, and walked up to the car, as is said, it is a coldblooded merciless murder...

[Faceman]

Originally posted by JrKASperov: If she shot the guy from point blank range, and walked up to the car, as is said, it is a coldblooded merciless murder...

Agreed.
Situations I'd have considered justifiable:
a.) Shoot him as/while he was threatening her
b.) Told him to "Stop or I'll shoot", maybe fire a warning shot and then shoot him aiming for non vital parts (but hitting him lethally).

If she really went up to the car and shot him straight in the face from point blank range she could get away with manslaughter (in terms of Austrian law, I'm not quite sure about the US definition).
Only excuse I can think of is that she (correctly or not) thought the thief was drawing a weapon.

[Stratos]

What guidelines/rules does her security company have regarding these things, and did she act according to those?

And what does the law say?

[Night Stalker]

Perfectly justifiable. One more violent criminal off the streets .... permanantly. I feel no pity for the fool. He assaulted a guard with a deadly weapon, and tried to get away. His mistake in his crimes was he forgot to make sure she was incapacitated or dead. That she ended up drawing a bigger weapon after the first hit and finished the fight is immateriel.

[Davros]

Close enough to murder under our laws to at the very least commit to a trial and let the legal process flush out the correct answer. It sounds like an unreasoanable degree of force to me as it was used after the fact - I think she will get a minimum of 7.

[Memnoch]

Originally posted by Faceman: quote: Originally posted by JrKASperov: If she shot the guy from point blank range, and walked up to the car, as is said, it is a coldblooded merciless murder...

Agreed.
Situations I'd have considered justifiable:
a.) Shoot him as/while he was threatening her
b.) Told him to "Stop or I'll shoot", maybe fire a warning shot and then shoot him aiming for non vital parts (but hitting him lethally).

If she really went up to the car and shot him straight in the face from point blank range she could get away with manslaughter (in terms of Austrian law, I'm not quite sure about the US definition).
Only excuse I can think of is that she (correctly or not) thought the thief was drawing a weapon. [/QUOTE]Without trying to defend this girl as I don't know all the facts, I'm guessing all this happened fairly quickly - she got smashed in the head with a metal knuckleduster, she fell to the ground, the bag containing the $30,000 of hotel takings was grabbed, she screamed for the thief to stop as he got into his car, she got to her feet, ran up to the car and shot into it (probably without aiming) and got the thief in the head, killing him instantly. I doubt she'd have had time to aim for a non vital part or whatever, particularly if the window was closed.

The key point here will be: after she'd already been smashed in the head pretty badly and the thief had already stolen the bag with the $30,000 and was in the process of making a getaway, technically she was no longer in danger (she may have thought otherwise at the time, but events would suggest that the thief's main interest at that point would have been to escape with the cash) - was she then entitled to shoot him?

Did she then kill the thief in self-defence because she feared for her life after being smashed in the head with a metal knuckleduster pretty badly or did she shoot him to prevent the loss of the $30000? In that case, did she need to shoot him at all? It's only money, after all.

On the other hand, she didn't ask to get violently assaulted either (and the assault was clearly premeditated).

Tough question...this will have ramifications on how armed security guards do their jobs. As Davros said probably enough ambiguity from an Australian perspective to warrant a trial. Feel sorry for the girl in a way. You wouldn't want to be a security guard and have to face that decision, eh.

[ 07-27-2004, 11:16 AM: Message edited by: Memnoch ]

[Khazadman Risen]

He got what he deserved! She should be rewarded.

[Illumina Drathiran'ar]

He had it coming, he had it coming, he had it coming all along.
If you'dve been there, if you'dve seen it, how could you tell her that she was wrong?

Ok, now that I've gotten that out of my system, I'd like to agree with Memnoch.. I doubt, in her condition, that she could have aimed properly. I doubt she could have shot him in the head if she tried to. If she had just suffered a head trauma and was bleeding, I would imagine all she could do was point and pull the trigger.