Incomprehensible beauty... godlike perfection

[Dandad]

Once upon a time a young couple woke up one morning to find a brand new luxury car standing on their drive way. They could not explain its appearance. They did not know ANYONE rich enough to give them such an expensive gift. Extensive research failed to provide any answer as to how it got there. So when they were asked about the new car by their neighbours they explained that the car had just happened. It was an accident that was mathematically bound to occur one day.

Their very sane and caring neighbours got together, and after much discussion took steps to have the couple taken away and placed in a lunatic asylum.

"After all.." said the neighbours to each other "..the whole Universe with all its beauty and intricacy just came out of chaos. It is just a chance occurance, an accident which was mathematically certain to happen over time. But nobody is going to accept that a beautiful and intricately engineered car could simply happen in just the same way. Quite obviously SOMEBODY or OTHER put it there."

Dandad

[Nachtrafe]

Hmmm...thought I'd save time and space and put all of my responses in one post.

Nacht
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Originally posted by Jorath Calar: No, this is not a Yorik appreciation thread... [img]smile.gif[/img] But just take a look at this page with microscopic pictures of snowflakes... it's almost scary how perfect some of them are. And I'm wondering... if such order can exsist in natures creation, doesn't it prove the chaos theory wrong? weird... [img]smile.gif[/img]

AMAZING! Wow, those pictures are really beautiful. LOL...You know, I had to shovel/snowblow a few hundred BILLION of those things off the driveway on Christmas and New Years day, and I was pretty honked off about it. But, seeing them on an individual level makes me really appreciate them. Thanks for the great link JC!!

Nacht

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Originally posted by LordKathen: Typical.

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Originally posted by LordKathen: Wanting? I know we've been here before Yorick, but I cant resist. There are so many zillions of beutiful things about this planet and the whole universe that is logically expainable with science, snow flakes are not going to convince me, "sorry". Maybe you, "want" to believe beuty like this is "created" the same way neandrathal beings wanted to explain out of fear, a shooting star, or fire. No affence Yorick, but as you may think I just dont uncerstand god, dont assume what a nonbeliever "wants"

Might I humbly suggest that you step down off your high horse and remove the (ice) chip from your shoulder? Lighten up dude! Yorick was just expressing A) His opinion, and B) His appreciation of something beautiful. You, on the other hand, have made two extremely rude and condescending posts that have absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand and which could quite reasonably be considered flames. Perhaps you should lighten up just a teensy bit, sit back, and enjoy the beauty of nature. *SHEESH*

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Originally posted by Dandad: Once upon a time a young couple woke up one morning to find a brand new luxury car standing on their drive way. They could not explain its appearance. They did not know ANYONE rich enough to give them such an expensive gift. Extensive research failed to provide any answer as to how it got there. So when they were asked about the new car by their neighbours they explained that the car had just happened. It was an accident that was mathematically bound to occur one day. Their very sane and caring neighbours got together, and after much discussion took steps to have the couple taken away and placed in a lunatic asylum. "After all.." said the neighbours to each other "..the whole Universe with all its beauty and intricacy just came out of chaos. It is just a chance occurance, an accident which was mathematically certain to happen over time. But nobody is going to accept that a beautiful and intricately engineered car could simply happen in just the same way. Quite obviously SOMEBODY or OTHER put it there." Dandad

ROTFLM(Magik's)AO!!!!! Too funny! Great post Dandad!!

[purre]

very beautiful..it's amazing,how every single one of them is different from another..oh well...
I did hope that this thread was about cats,but maybe next time [img]tongue.gif[/img] cats are the salt of the earth (and chocolate too )

[LordKathen]

Originally posted by LordKathen:
Wanting?
I know we've been here before Yorick, but I cant resist. There are so many zillions of beutiful things about this planet and the whole universe that is logically expainable with science, snow flakes are not going to convince me, "sorry".

Maybe you, "want" to believe beuty like this is "created" the same way neandrathal beings wanted to explain out of fear, a shooting star, or fire.

No affence Yorick, but as you may think I just dont uncerstand god, dont assume what a nonbeliever "wants"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from Nachtrafe...

Might I humbly suggest that you step down off your high horse and remove the (ice) chip from your shoulder? Lighten up dude! Yorick was just expressing A) His opinion, and B) His appreciation of something beautiful. You, on the other hand, have made two extremely rude and condescending posts that have absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand and which could quite reasonably be considered flames. Perhaps you should lighten up just a teensy bit, sit back, and enjoy the beauty of nature. *SHEESH*

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Actually, your wrong. I may be a little sensitive towards comments about the theist view, but I did not state my opinion about the beuty of the snowflakes with saying anything about evolutuion. It would be like me saying, "Wow, look at that beuty in these snowflakes, I cant imagine how anybody could say they are part of a supernatural design" He was not implying anything to me personaly, but was stating a direct opinion at athiests, so I responded. The first "flame" was probly not nescesary, but like you have stated your opinion about me and my posts, so did I. Another thing, I am not the one on a "high horse", just tring to keep the others around here from trampling on me with their horses.

[ 01-16-2003, 08:30 PM: Message edited by: LordKathen ]

[Sir Krustin]

Originally posted by Epona: EDIT: Sorry I had to put dots in my diagrams to make them hold their shape once posted - for some reason my carefully placed spaces collapsed upon posting! So 'O'= an ice particle (or any other basically round object) and '.' = just something I put in so the diagram would look right (sort of). Sorry, it looked better without the dots!

Epona, use the < PRE > tag (without the spaces) and you will keep the exact formatting you want, like so:

   O   O

    O O

O O O O O

    O O

   O   O

[Sir Goulum]

I looooove this one!

[Nachtrafe]

Originally posted by LordKathen: Originally posted by LordKathen: Wanting? I know we've been here before Yorick, but I cant resist. There are so many zillions of beutiful things about this planet and the whole universe that is logically expainable with science, snow flakes are not going to convince me, "sorry". Maybe you, "want" to believe beuty like this is "created" the same way neandrathal beings wanted to explain out of fear, a shooting star, or fire. No affence Yorick, but as you may think I just dont uncerstand god, dont assume what a nonbeliever "wants" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote from Nachtrafe... Might I humbly suggest that you step down off your high horse and remove the (ice) chip from your shoulder? Lighten up dude! Yorick was just expressing A) His opinion, and B) His appreciation of something beautiful. You, on the other hand, have made two extremely rude and condescending posts that have absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand and which could quite reasonably be considered flames. Perhaps you should lighten up just a teensy bit, sit back, and enjoy the beauty of nature. *SHEESH* ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Actually, your wrong. I may be a little sensitive towards comments about the theist view, but I did not state my opinion about the beuty of the snowflakes with saying anything about evolutuion. It would be like me saying, "Wow, look at that beuty in these snowflakes, I cant imagine how anybody could say they are part of a supernatural design" He was not implying anything to me personaly, but was stating a direct opinion at athiests, so I responded. The first "flame" was probly not nescesary, but like you have stated your opinion about me and my posts, so did I.

Just FYI, my main complaint was...You didn't say anything about the snowflakes at all! All you did was come into a very nice thread and bash Yorick's post. He was expressing his devout belief in God, not trying to convert you. If you had actually posted ON TOPIC, and posted your opinion of the topic, then rebutted Yorick, then perhaps it would have seemed more reasonable. Instead, it seems like nothing more than a petty dig at someone's faith.

Another thing, I am not the one on a "high horse", just tring to keep the others around here from trampling on me with their horses.

One person expressing his or her faith does NOT equate to an indictment of those without it. You admit that Yorick was not, personally, targeting you, yet you made a *completely* personal, and totally uncalled for, attack on him. Sounds pretty 'high horsish' to me. I mean come on! You equate him, by implication, to a neanderthal! That's kind of petty, dont you think?

Anyway...Jorath, I'm sorry for taking your thread [img]graemlins/offtopic.gif[/img] . LK, if you wish to continue discussing this, I would be more than happy to speak to you in PM or via email. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Nachtrafe]

Originally posted by Sir Goulum: I looooove this one!

Me too SG! Gorgeous!!

[Yorick]

Kathen, would it help if I apologised?

When I saw the snowflakes, I saw the same thing as if I hear a song, see certain painitings, an architectural drawing, a road map, a chord chart, or one of those rice patterns in a telescopy thing. I totally recognised intent, design, process, and orchestration behind their existence. I expressed complete bafflement as to seeing anything other than the conclusion I've mentioned, but then that is part of my CONVICTION.

It's seems the very theist view is offensive to you. How can a theist be utterly convinced - with the logical inclusion that if they are right, then you are wrong - without you being offended?

The pure fact is, that though I love and respect the intellect of atheist friends I have, I cannot accept atheism as an idea, purely on the grounds that you cannot prove that anything does not exist - only that you have not experienced it. See as a CONCEPT alone, God exists in human minds. Even purely as a coping mechanism God exists in human psyche. These are irrefutable. Whether He exists in the way or to the extent we who believe say He does, is another matter.

By declaring atheism, an atheist is attempting to apply their experience of reality universally. If God is not in your reality, then He's not in the farthest reaches of the universe and he's not in the reality of someone that professes to love him, and communicate with him daily.

For me, agnosticism is a far more realistic approach for a person rejecting faith.

"I have no faith in God. He is not real to me, but I don't totally discount the possibility that he might exist."

It allows that there are things outside your experiences.

My statement was perhaps the closest I've come to applying the reality extension of atheism into my theism.

Normally, I do not presume that an atheist has experience of God, although an athesit presumes a theist has NO experience of God. I accept you when you say "I don't know God. Or "I don't believe in God". I don't believe you're insane, chemotropically halucinating or lying.

At this juncture, all I suggested was that perhaps, a person that does not want to believe, will NEVER belief - out of choice - no matter what evidence is placed before them.

Why? Because I found the snowflakes to be more irrefutable evidence. That is my OPINION. The certainty and assurance of that opinion reflected in the strength of the statement. I was however, seeking to make a positive and constructive statement about the incredible beauty of the snowflake.

I'm simply being honest. When I see beauty, I praise God. When I feel joy, I praise God. When I see genius I praise God.

You don't. We each don't understand how the other can possibly think that way.

C'est la vie.

Thanks Jim BTW. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[LordKathen]

Lets say that I was the first one to reply to this thread, and I said,

"Wow, just look at the perfection and beuty in these snowflakes. They are just perfect. Im sorry, but anyone who says that this is not science at its best and is created through design by some supernatural power, just wants to believe in that, and does NOT want to accept the science of this beutifull world".

How would you guys have responded to this? I dont think it would have been left alone. I did not flame anyone. I have no problem with the theist veiw. I am married to a mormon. You didnt just state your opinion about the beuty being design and your faith in that, you presumed what a nonbeliever wants to believe. I dont reject faith or god, there is nothing to reject. To reject something you need to have it first, right? You brought the other side of the argument into this thread first by your presumptious words. You defend your faith by denouncing our opinion and say we are just rejecting god. Well, like you said we will never fully understand each other. I am sorry for jumping to my "horse", but I did not see a reason for your words. You could have just thanked your god for this beuty and moved on.

Bygons Yorich.

[ 01-20-2003, 08:13 AM: Message edited by: LordKathen ]