matters of the spirit

[The Hierophant]

Howdy folks.
Well, I've been out for a few brews tonight and have been engaging in a bit of table-side discussion. One of the topics brought up was the nature and existence of the spirit. Now of course this is a subject within which there can be no definitive facts or answers, yet I am curious as to what people's opinions as to the nature of spirituality entails. Be it theistic religious predestination, agnostic ponderation, atheist dismissal, anything. Open up and share the love [img]smile.gif[/img]

I've pretty much been brought up under the notion that there are no souls, no supernatural forces transcendant of physical flesh. Although as I'm getting older in my youth I'm finding the muse of spirituality all the more appealing, and whilst I've certainly had no born-again revelations as to the nature of the universe I am definately beginning to understand the power of faith in the hearts and minds of a community as a whole. I'd love to believe, but my atheistic prejudices are holding theistic faith at bay. Maybe with a little time I'll be able to fully relax with the notion of the spirit, but for now I'm open to the opinions of others and I'd love to hear what you all have to say.

[ 09-09-2002, 08:17 AM: Message edited by: The Hierophant ]

[The Hierophant]

Ps: I'm not meaning to get all heavy on you guys. And I realize everyone may or may not be sick to death of religious discussion in these forums. But my question isn't so much about religious debate, more about what you think the 'spirit' is (if you think it exists at all). No right or wrong answers, no flaming, no criticising people's opinions. Just speak your mind, plain and simple.

[K T Ong]

I like discussions like these, Hierophant (provided they don't end up in flames ) -- and I'm sure Cerek the Gentle Barbarian does, too. Interesting that I should have just come back from a bookstore with a book on precisely such topics, only to run into your thread. The Spirit must be trying to talk to me!

I suppose before we can really take off in any direction we need to clarify our terms of reference. What (to you) is 'spirit'? Just what does it mean to be 'spiritual'?

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by K T Ong: I suppose before we can really take off in any direction we need to clarify our terms of reference. What (to you) is 'spirit'? Just what does it mean to be 'spiritual'?

That's just the thing, I'm not really sure. I know that the human mind (brain) has an incredible power to produce euphoric sensations that could be attributed to a sense of soul. I know that when under extreme pressures (lack of oxygen, High g-forces, near-death etc) then tunnel-vision and a sense of heavenly bliss can overcome the mind.
I would assume the judeo-christian 'spirit' relates to mankinds attribution of physical forces to the intangible 'perfection' of existence. The search for something better, by which to compare and judge the mortal flesh. It makes alot of sense in a optimistic christian sort of way, and provides the vital service of holding many societies together, but is it really credible? That's what I'm always wondering. I know, I know, it's for me alone to decide my own beliefs, but it's just tricky when there's so much conflicting input.

[K T Ong]

I once joked with someone that there are many types of 'spirit': holy spirit, methylated spirit, team spirit, evil spirit...

More seriously, I suppose one may define 'spirit' as that which is eternal. Not just in the sense of 'lasting indefinitely in time', but in the sense that it answers your deepest longings and needs.

Let me explain. You want something. You get it. Okay, you feel satisfied for a while. Just a while. Later, the sense of satisfaction fades; you want something else again. Thus your deepest longings and needs have not been satisfied -- if they were, the sense of satisfaction would not fade, right? In this sense, that something you sought was not 'eternal'. It did not bring lasting satisfaction; before long you were up and about again looking for something else -- and this running about and looking for something is essentially what time is. You're looking constantly to the future. But if you can be truly satisfied with something, then you become so absorbed in it that there's only the present -- you become totally oblivious to the passage of time. You enter a state of timelessness -- the eternal. That's why I define 'spirit' as eternal in the sense that it answers your deepest longings and needs.

Am I making sense so far? Anyway, that's how I define 'spirit'. As for whether it exists... let me hear from you first.

[ 09-09-2002, 09:25 AM: Message edited by: K T Ong ]

[The Hierophant]

That's a good definition there KT.
As for whether 'it exists', it's just a matter of faith I guess. If you want to believe it exists, then there's nothing that can stop you. I'd like to think there is something more than the temporary flesh, but perhaps life itself is simply just not meant to have this degree of self-reflection as to the nature of it's own existence. Maybe the problem of the soul is a purely human concern brought about by a brain too big for it's own good [img]smile.gif[/img] Innoncence is bliss. But if I had to make the leap of faith then, if I'm put on the spot with a yes or no answer being the only outcome, well, hmmmm, I'd say (very faintly) yes.

[K T Ong]

At least you're not too hasty to put it all down as hogwash.

On my part, yes, I believe in 'spirit', though my belief is based on the testimonials of mystics from the world's major spiritual traditions. When you study the writings of people like Meister Eckhart, St Hildegard of Bingen, Jacob Boehme, Rumi, Sankara and others, you often find surprising similarities in their accounts despite their widely differing cultural backgrounds. So I really do not think that 'spirit' is something entirely subjective. Only trouble is, I haven't had any firsthand experience of the Eternal myself so far, unlike them. It's like hearing a lot of people talk about orange juice but never getting to try some yourself.

That much said, I don't think it's fair to dismiss testimony as a possible source of knowledge. After all, everything I've ever known about the Eiffel Tower is derived from testimony; I've never been to France to see it myself.

Just my 2 cents for now.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Greetings Heirophant and K.T.

I do indeed enjoy discussions of this nature (like the veritable moth to a flame). It is absolutely my favorite subject to discuss.

Heirophant - I am also glad to see that you haven't completely "shut the door" on spirituality. I really can't provide a better definition than K.T. has, so I will just accept his, if that's alright.

He is also correct in that the spirit seeks eternal gratification, rather than temporary satifaction. Humans are created with a soul that looks for something "larger" than themselves to "believe in" or "worship".

Christians look to God to fill this "void", Muslims call on Allah, Buddhist worship Buddha, and New Agers rely on power crystals.

Atheists and agnostics "generally" fill this longing with a desire for some type of material gain or physical possession. That doesn't necessarily mean they seek material wealth. Some may be artists who find this "inner longing" satiated by the paintings they create. While others simply deny that any "inner desire" exists at all.

I know what the answer is for me, but I would not be so bold as to say it is the answer for everyone. Some simply can't reconcile the thought of an ephemeral, all-powerful Creator with the occurances of tragedy and strife caused by His "creations". I understand that perfectly.

As you said, the answer does ultimately lie with you alone. But you have taken the first steps on the journey of your self-discovery. By realizing there may be something more and actively seeking it, the answers will eventually come to you. Your journey may not lead you to the same "destination" as K.T. or myself. All that matters is that the final answer satisfies you.

[K T Ong]

Hello, Cerek. Glad to hear from you again (not that you haven't been around at IW). Like your rather poetic line: "Like a veritable moth to a flame."

Largely agree, the answers do ultimately lie with the individual alone. What is surprising is the degree and frequency with which the answers actually agree with each other. But until one finds them oneself, they will be secondhand accounts. It's one thing to hear a lot of people talk about the tastes of orange juice, and entirely another thing altogether to taste some yourself.

Let's continue our search for the Light, friends. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 09-09-2002, 09:28 PM: Message edited by: K T Ong ]

[Blade]

Well this is one of my more favorite subjects too. To be right to the point yes i do believe the spirit exists. One argument for the existance of such a thing is just to look at the history of religion every religion with the exception of agnostisism hase some concept of a greater essence residing with in you. But then if your not religious this argument might not do much for you, but ask this does it really make much of a difference in your life weather you believe in a spirit regardless of what religion if any you believe in? The whole concept is around to provide comfort to what happens to you after you die because many people don't like the idea of it just ending and thats it thats all she wrote. Also just as thought if eventually you do deside to look into a religion look into all of them and deside which religion you like best and which best fits your charecter you might find a little known religion that fits you to the preverbial T. Hope i don't sound to patranizing or zelous that isn't what i'm trying to do, or be. I'm not even trying to convinse you that you should even have religion in your life i'm still asking myself that question. Just spend some time and read and critically annalize all point of view and think of what you want from life. Most importantly all say it again be yourself don't try to conform to a religion that doesn't suit your outlook or view of thing you will only frustrated and demoralized.