where are everyone

Originally posted by Charean: I do the right thing in my life, for to do otherwise would be to hurt myself. For we are all part of the whole.

Well there's the other idea that we should all do the "right things" just in case, as somebody once said, "A wise man believes in God".



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'Cloudbringer for Spamturny General' - BK
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[Stealthy]

Charean, whilst I believe people do subconciously do things that they would not feel comfortable doing on a concious level, I agree with Yorick that there are many instances were people are affected through no fault of their own. Even if we accept that people are in total control of their own destiny, how would it work when they tried to control another's detiny, in order to achieve theirs? The two might conflict and I can't see how that could be resolved if there are no victims as you say.

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Shadow Mage of the OHF.

[Charean]

I like that...

Living in love and compassion takes not only strength, but stamina. And believe in the Higher Power helps!



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Defender for the Light -
Goodness knows there is a lot of Dark out there!! - Where are my matches?!?
Wandering Joke of the Laughing Hyenas
Aquisition master of the Finest of Humours - and the Killer Joke

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Charean: Okay, the caste system is something I have never been comfortable with, either. But burning off Karma from other lifetimes is not necessarily bad. There are people who have physical challenges, but rise above that. In my mind, they rise above their Karma as well. Every challenge is an opportunity for growth, for without growth, there is no point to this existence. It is the people who bemoan their existence that become trapped within it. Your volley!

Charean, the caste system gains its legitimacy and support from Karma. A full belief system has to be challenged at the extreme of it's applications if it's to stand up. It is the logical extension of Karmic principal. Bear in mind too that the Hindu Karma laws are not motive based but action based. The intent behind an action has no bearing on a reward or punishment, simply the action itself.

At it's extreme it can make for a very cold, heartless way of existing. I'm not inferring you are, but if you aren't, you aren't applying the philosophy totally.

To help someone that slips on a banana is futile and unnecessary because they created their situation. To stop a man raping a woman is unnecessary because she created the situation. To stop a child from falling down a cliff because they are playing outside the fence is needless because they are creating their situation.

Again, I have a balanced viewpoint that we do "reap what we sow" but I think these are within certain physical laws such as the heart attack example you mentioned.
To apply a broad based spiritual law of Karmic reward over several life spans not only isolates an individual from the brotherhood that can be shared in helping each other through the crap that life can throw at you, but also blinds one to the preciousness of this life and the necessity to take hold of every experience IN CASE IT'S THE ONLY ONE WE HAVE.

If I am wrong, I get a second shot (or third or fourth etc) at existing

Mind you it make a terrible mockery of wisdom and learning if we are merely to 'forget it all' when we die.

The frustrations with Karma are part of what led Buddha on his search and renunciation and found the reason for the Buddhist path: Escape the vicious unforgiving karmic cycle through negating the desire of rebirth.... hence the path of rejecting earthly desires and passion in the process. (but isn't desiring no desire a desire? )

I'm not talking about 'bemoaning existence'. Some people with terrible limitations don't let the disabilty define them. However, though a quadraplegic cannot run, they can draw, paint, write, journey, love and communicate with as much passion as the next. It is about knowing and working within your limits and making the most of the strengths and gifts that's important.




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Where were Hamlet and Horatio when I needed them?!

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[Charean]

Originally posted by Stealthy: Charean, whilst I believe people do subconciously do things that they would not feel comfortable doing on a concious level, I agree with Yorick that there are many instances were people are affected through no fault of their own. Even if we accept that people are in total control of their own destiny, how would it work when they tried to control another's detiny, in order to achieve theirs? The two might conflict and I can't see how that could be resolved if there are no victims as you say.

Who is to say that on a soul level they were not in agreement to combine fates?
I am not a fatalist, but I also don't rule anything out. After all, this is conjecture and supposition. I can't Prove anything.

I do believe, however, that you are only a victim if that is how you percieve it. I have been through some serious traumatic instances - where most women would ask, why me? - and I simply changed my perception. I wondered how I brought it on myself, figured it out and never repeated the experience. (I am talking of rape.) I brought it on myself through being naive, but I learned not to put myself in those circumstances again.

I have been in many circumstances, (homeless at one point, stalked in another) where my perception of where I was made the difference. I learned from all of it - about myself and about life.

That which does not kill you, makes you stronger.



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Defender for the Light -
Goodness knows there is a lot of Dark out there!! - Where are my matches?!?
Wandering Joke of the Laughing Hyenas
Aquisition master of the Finest of Humours - and the Killer Joke

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Moiraine: First you have to know what 'the right thing' is. You made me think of something I read recently, it is in French, so I will translate. Answer honestly to the two following questions - comments on my next post. First question: Suppose that you know a woman who is pregnant, but has already 8 children, among them 3 deaf ones, 2 blind ones and 1 mentally backward; add to that that this woman has syphilis. Would you advise her to abort ? Second question : It is time to elect the President of the World, and your vote will be determining. Here are the data about the three main candidates : - Candidate A : He is associated with corrupt politicians and consults astrologers. He had had two mistresses. He smokes like a chimney and drinks 8 to 10 martinis per day. - Candidate B : He has alredy been fired twice, he sleeps until midday, he used to smoke opium in high school, he drinks 1/4 l. of whisky every night. - Candidate C : He his a war hero, has won numerous medals. He is a vegetarian, ho occasionally drinks a beer, and he never had any extra-conjugal affairs. Which of those candidates would you (honestly) choose ? Don't cheat.

Yeah yeah, C was like a Hitler or Lucifer or someone right?



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Where were Hamlet and Horatio when I needed them?!

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[Black Knight]

Originally posted by Yorick: Charean, No need to sense my sceptiscism... I was meaning to communicate it Re. your last post: Sure, but take the person born with a deformity, leprosy or some other heireditary disease. It is something they are genetically 'given', not something that they've earned. The danger in that thinking Charean is that, taken to it's logical conclusion it negates charity, negates the need to rectify injustice, poverty, illness, homelessness etc. If everyone creates their environment they have 'deserved it'. You see this in the Hindu caste mentality (which is thankfully changing) where this extends to even things we are born with. Things we are born with are 'carried over' consequences of a past life. Needless to say the caste system the Aryans imposed was very much like an ancient Aparthied that preserved their race at the top, and left no room for the conquered 'untouchables' to change their situation. I have encountered that school of thought on many occasion, so forgive me if I'm coming down a little strong. I believe BALANCE is the key. Acknowledging the things you can't change, discovering the things you can and learning the difference - to paraphrase the old saying. Not all chaos is bad I believe. The "happy accident" is a beautiful thing. Sometimes it's nice to let go and enjoy the ride without seeking to control the uncontrolable.

Yorick, are you in danger of going Druid on us? I agree with you, BTW.

BK, throwing his two cents in . . .

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The Laughing Black Storm Cloud of the Night

[Charean]

Yorick, I reread your posts and I believe we are on the same side, but miscommunicating.

I am not into the cold application of Karma, being an American, that is against my culture, anyway. I take that principle and apply it with compassion and gentleness. All your examples are people in need of aid, and I would render it gladly. You left out Bodi Safa (sp?) - those who CHOOSE to come back to this plane to help others raise their Dharma and escape the cycles of rebirth.

Yes, I believe heartily in reincarnation. I believe that we build upon what we do. Who is to say that doing the courageous and compassionate things in life we cannot be Buddhist or Hindu?

Do not take my heart out of this, it is in everything I do, think and feel. For helping others to become happier and healthier is what I live for. Doing the Honorable path is all I can do.

I believe we make our own choices in life, and those that are ignorant of their power in thier lives still live - and learn when they die. For what they face is what they create themselves... have they passed their own tests? Life is for learning - and creating.

Balance is good... for anything done to excess can be harmful.

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Defender for the Light -
Goodness knows there is a lot of Dark out there!! - Where are my matches?!?
Wandering Joke of the Laughing Hyenas
Aquisition master of the Finest of Humours - and the Killer Joke

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Charean: Who is to say that on a soul level they were not in agreement to combine fates? I am not a fatalist, but I also don't rule anything out. After all, this is conjecture and supposition. I can't Prove anything. I do believe, however, that you are only a victim if that is how you percieve it. I have been through some serious traumatic instances - where most women would ask, why me? - and I simply changed my perception. I wondered how I brought it on myself, figured it out and never repeated the experience. (I am talking of rape.) I brought it on myself through being naive, but I learned not to put myself in those circumstances again. I have been in many circumstances, (homeless at one point, stalked in another) where my perception of where I was made the difference. I learned from all of it - about myself and about life. That which does not kill you, makes you stronger.

O.K. Charean, first of all I'm terribly sorry to hear of your rape, but secondly I would put forward that never, ever it it a womans fault. Your naivety is hardly something that you could have altered. Only with hindsight do you even see that you were naive at all. You can hardly change something when you are ignorant about the necessity to change it. A blind man cannot avoid a soundless object falling from above.

I too have had various traumatic incidences and looked death in the face. Some of our reactions are coping mechanisms, others genuine philsophical responses to a new knowledge, but you are right that a change in perspective is often what's necessary for survival.

I'm sorry if my earlier example of rape, made in ignorance of your experience caused you grief. That certainly was not my intention.

'Intention' thus leads me to dharma. As Moiraine pointed out, we are reliant on forsight to correctly 'do good'. Ethical dilemmas such as either killing a bull to feed ten starving humans create situations
of no-win under karmic law - that considers the bull part of the cycle equally with humans. Same if we crush an ants nest to plough a field. Our very survival is impossible without continually doing ill. Motive is as I said irrelevant because we 'intend' everything whether subconciously or not.

A Christian has the realisation that keeping any laws to attain more 'good deeds than bad' is impossible and that forgiveness holds more compassion than Karma.

I make my definition of 'good' as sacrificing ones own agenda for the benefit of another. (As per your Mother Theresa example for an extreme) and evil as sacrificing anothers benefit for your own agenda. (as per the aforementioned Hitler for the other extreme).

What matters at it's separation point is motive, heart, not action. Doing 'good deeds' to balance the karmic ledger are motivated by self betterment, so doing truly 'good deeds' under this system is, when using my definition, nearly impossible.

A Christian does 'good deeds for various reasons. One, the joy and gratitude of being given life, and being 'forgiven' - thus removed from 'law' extends towards others in a desire to better anothers life as their own has been bettered, and 'let them in on the secret' of their source of joy and hope.

I have hitherto on this board never 'preached' or 'bible bashed' partly because of past stigmas associated with this (mal)practice.

I have though, investigated your school of thought for myself, and found it a very bleak reality (no offense Charean ) and especially now with the knowledge of your traumas, I would plead with you to investigate mine.

My perception is that the negatives in life serve to give the positives a context, a yardstick. Even so positive experiences totally outnumber negatives, and it is because of their sheer number that we take most for granted. Drinking water, feeling wind, looking at ANYTHING let alone a sunset or dancing flame or tree blowing in the wind is miraculously positive. It is when you are lying on a bed dying, unable to let even water past your lips that simply walking down a hall, or eating become the wonderfully important things they are.

I was and I felt.



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Where were Hamlet and Horatio when I needed them?!

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[This message has been edited by Yorick (edited 03-21-2001).]

[Charean]

Wonderful words, Yorick - you are truly a philosopher at heart.

I know we all make our lives work in one way or another - mine is a spiritual outlet (not orthodox anything, but the flavor of many different philosophies, actually).

I do agree with you on almost every point you made. Which is why I am not an orthodox Buddhist or monastic. IMHO, one religeon cannot encompass all the wonder of living and spirit and other realities. I did study Buddhism with a monastic for a while, and found that I do live by the path, but I am not a believer of many deities. I have also studied Paganism and Shamanism. I have picked up on some Christianity (husbands that were Catholic or similar) but have always sought my own light.

It seems you are still searching for your light... you are finding what you do not believe in, but not what you do. (Heck, I could be wrong, here, it has been known to happen.) I totally respect your view on Hinduism and Buddhism - you see it all the time where you are.

Someone once said that I have a belief of convenience. That I do not stick with one way of thinking (a religeon or philosophy) - my question is why should I? After all, there are many experiences out in life that cannot be explained - and no one philosophy can cover them all.

I think I have rambled too much, I am tired and it is late for me (I am a morning person). Just know that I like you, Yorick. You have a good mind and a good heart.

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Defender for the Light -
Goodness knows there is a lot of Dark out there!! - Where are my matches?!?
Wandering Joke of the Laughing Hyenas
Aquisition master of the Finest of Humours - and the Killer Joke