Well, we usually have a very vocal board, wonder why no one has statred on...

[Fljotsdale]

Originally posted by Yorick: [ Hypothesise for a moment that you are building a house. While the house is being built you are living in a caravan. You have certain rituals you perform every night such as putting out the campfire and unfolding the sofabed. You speak of all you will do when you move into the new house. When you do move in, there is no campfire to put out, and a bed that stays up all the time, so those rituals are unecessary. Jesus is the house Fjlotsdale. As I said, I see no contradiction. That was then in the caravan, this is now, in the new house. [/B]

As I expected from you Nice, well-reasoned argument! Sound, too, actually. I like it.

Originally posted by Yorick:
Fjlotsdale, your background was Jehv Witness was it not? I said it before and I'll say it again, the differences between JWs and Christianity are so profound that the Christian churches do not consider Jehovahs Witnesses "Christian". The way you are posting highlights this as "Grace" is an early concept in a Christians walk, and fundamental to the notion of "Salvation".
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Hm. I don't think you really understand about JW's Yorick! Main diff between them and other 'christian' churches is that they do not have any 'church' traditions, only biblical ones, which is why the churches disown them - and they are glad to be disowned! A LOT of church teachings are quite contrary to the bible, you know, since they were derived from 'pagan' beliefs. However...
other than that, JW's attitudes are pretty much the same as yours! It is ME that is out of step, lol! Don't base your opinion of JW's on anything I say! THEY would disown ME if they knew my religious views! But since I left years ago it hardly matters!



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[This message has been edited by Fljotsdale (edited 06-16-2001).]

[Sir Taliesin]

I thought this debate stated out about the death penalty? Sure got expanded!
Still it's been pretty good!

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Sir Taliesin



If they take my gun can I still use my Axe?

[Yorick]

You are a gentle(wo)man and a scholar Fjlotsdale. Thankyou.

Perhaps you are right about J.W.s and I am misinformed. Correct me if I'm wrong but I was under the impression that the Old Testament was given larger importance in that faith than mainline Christianity. I also was under the impression that JWs don't accept the Trinity - that God, the son and the spirit are one, and that Salvation is earned or "bettered" through works. Maybe I am confusing it with the Mormons.

I understand that your views are not JW of course , but that you had come from that worldview. Buddhas views make more sense when understanding Hinduism, as his thinking was a reaction against many percieved "wrongs" of the religion. From what I know of JW theology I too would have left the fold were I in your shoes. As a matter of fact I get dissatisfied with Churches in general. I have worshipped in Anglican, Baptist, Uniting, Ecumenical, Irish Roman Catholic, Pentecostal, Congregational and Multi-denomenational churches and found none to be without error.

I refuse to throw the baby out with the bathwater though as God/Jesus has never failed me. I get such strength, peace, joy and fulfilment from my relationship with him that I often think "where else would I go?" For a while I was happy going to no church for a while as I delt with the complexities of my divorce and the mixed reactions from other christians (suprise suprise). That said I cannot tell you how much those that did support me did so, and how much joy I get contributing at this Singaporean church. My goodness, one of my compatriots last night intimated (before they sang) of their past heroine addiction (over twenty years ago) and the subsequent lifestyle it created, and how much God had healed them, of both the addiction, and the reasons the addiction arose in the first place.

I have known them twelve years and had no idea.


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Memnoch, I avoided remembering the psycho's name in my earlier post to deny him any fame. A total tool that guy. I agree.

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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[This message has been edited by Yorick (edited 06-17-2001).]

[Fljotsdale]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Yorick:
[B]You are a gentle(wo)man and a scholar Fjlotsdale. Thankyou.

Gosh! Where to start!?
First - thank you for the compliment! Let me say the same of you, without the 'wo' insert, lol!

Perhaps you are right about J.W.s and I am misinformed. Correct me if I'm wrong but I was under the impression that the Old Testament was given larger importance in that faith than mainline Christianity. I also was under the impression that JWs don't accept the Trinity - that God, the son and the spirit are one, and that Salvation is earned or "bettered" through works. Maybe I am confusing it with the Mormons.

OT of larger importance: This is a popular misconception, so it is no wonder you hold it! Not true, however. BUT the JW's do not relegate the OT almost to the dustbin, as many churches seem to, since so much of it relates directly to Jesus and his importance in the overall design of the creator. They see an understanding of the OT as vital to a real understanding of the role of Christ. They also see it as of prime importance to know and use the name of god - Jehovah, in the anglicised version.
Bettered by works FAR FROM IT! They see salvation as an 'undeserved kindness', not something earned! But, as the apostle Paul said 'faith without works is dead in itself'. The christian cannot expect to 'accept the salvation of christ' and carry on in the same old sinful way as before. Early christians were also expected to 'preach the word', so JW's DO.
Trinity You are correct. They do not accept the trinity teaching, since it is unbiblical and gleaned from much older 'pagan' beliefs. You will quote me chapter and verse here, but till you do, I will not go into details, lol!

I understand that your views are not JW of course , but that you had come from that worldview. Buddhas views make more sense when understanding Hinduism, as his thinking was a reaction against many percieved "wrongs" of the religion. From what I know of JW theology I too would have left the fold were I in your shoes. As a matter of fact I get dissatisfied with Churches in general. I have worshipped in Anglican, Baptist, Uniting, Ecumenical, Irish Roman Catholic, Pentecostal, Congregational and Multi-denomenational churches and found none to be without error.

Yes.
But it wasn't the theology - it was the god, lol! I don't see him as you do, Yorick.

I refuse to throw the baby out with the bathwater though as God/Jesus has never failed me. I get such strength, peace, joy and fulfilment from my relationship with him that I often think "where else would I go?" For a while I was happy going to no church for a while as I delt with the complexities of my divorce and the mixed reactions from other christians (suprise suprise). That said I cannot tell you how much those that did support me did so, and how much joy I get contributing at this Singaporean church. My goodness, one of my compatriots last night intimated (before they sang) of their past heroine addiction (over twenty years ago) and the subsequent lifestyle it created, and how much God had healed them, of both the addiction, and the reasons the addiction arose in the first place.
I have known them twelve years and had no idea.

Yes, I understand how you feel about your faith, Yorick, and I do not deny it's value. Your story of the former drug addict is repeated many times among JW's. They have many such former criminals, wife beaters, drug addicts, etc among them. Their beliefs have wrought wonderful changes in their lives. A couple who are still friends of mine were drug addicts and burglars when I first met them, but studying the bible with them helped them turn around their lives. They, also, are no longer JW's but they will always be grateful for the benefits they gained - and they have never gone back to their former way of life. I am grateful to have been instrumental in that change.

I hope that clears up a few things, my friend! (I feel you ARE a friend - hope you don't mind!)


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"I would venture to say that most people would fight to keep that right."

After i asked if you would shoot a policeman who had a wife and 2 children asked politily for you give your gun to him or be arrested , you made the statemant above, therefore i would assume that you would shoot someone even the hypothetical person in question to keep your gun, also just beacause the propaganda put out by the NRA is veiws of people there that doesnt make it any less propaganda. And also just beacuse some people support something it doesnt mean its right. like if 75% of people belive its okay to be racist does that make it okay?

Also in britain where all automatics are not allowed and only single shot weapons are allowed, even if you account for the differences in population size there are also far more murders per capita commited with guns in america than there are in britain. I belive that this incredeible diffrence in per captia murder rate is due nearly entirely to the fact that in america guns are avaiible eaisly and in england they are not.

You say that if firearms are banned crimanals will still get them. Since poeple who support freely availible firearms are mostly in favour of "tough" prison sentances,put criminalss who get illegal firearms away for a long long time in prison, that would make them think twice about getting them, since you claim that the long prison sentacnes are a detterant maybe they would work in this case?

[Wulfere]

Originally posted by Fljotsdale: Gaelic, Wolfere, 'tisn't a matter of not wanting to understand! Speaking for myself alone, I have some vague glimmering of how you feel. But it IS only vague, and it is so tempered by cold common sense that I truly marvel that so many Americans can be so hide-bound by tradition and the propaganda of gun manufacturers. Look, I like both you guys, so don't take me wrong. I know I am not going to convince you! But truly, truly, guys, you are SO WRONG! No hard feelings, hey? I'm gonna drop out of this discussion now, 'cos we are both on a loser!

I think you are right about this being an subject that we should drop. It started out as something to dis-cuss. But it has turned, I think, sour. I will not post any longer to this thread. But, I will say that I have never seen gun propaganda. Whether we are wrong and you are all right, who knows. But I don't feel like this is getting to anything but a bad end filled with bad feelings.
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I grew up in San Diego. I have been in the rough parts of that town. I have never carried a gun. I have been to San Fransico and in the tough parts there as well as alot of other cities. I was never afraid enough to carry a weapon to school or anyplace else. But it is nice that should I chose to I could.
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To everyone on this board, I would like to say...
You can walk our streets at night without undue fear you will be shot dead in the next instant. I have talked to people who have come visiting here, that was actually a concern. We are not war mongers and bloodthirsty killers. We are not like Iran where they enforce death penalties for speaking wrong of someone, not being of the same religion and speaking it out loud or for adultery. I could use some really nasty inflamatory retoric like that, but really whats the point? To anger some one, to belittle them or the nation they call home? I am, as you can see Gaelic is, Very, Very Patriotic. We do love our country and that is why we would argue and eventually say something we could never take back. I have risked my life for the ideals this country was founded on. I would risk it to defend your right to call me names and speak your mind as well. Though this forum is one that you can edit. In the heat of anger, stupid and often unforgettable things are said. These may be forgivable, but nothing is forgettable.
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Lets not lose sight of the fact that as humans we will never be in complete agreement about anything. I may check back here but, I will not post here.
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Gawd Bless and Goodbye to this thread. Fljotsdale...I like you too. See you on one of the other threads.


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[Gaelic]

Dittos Wulfere.



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Gaelic

[John D Harris]

I'm for the death penalty for one reason, as PUNISHMENT, not a deturent(SP?)or vengence. If you do the crime you will pay the pentalty, sooner or later.
Life is hard, "It" will rip your face off and preform nasty bodily functions in the hole, then sew your face back on so you can taste it.
As for the morality of the death penalty, the courts ONLY have the power to judge the "earthy guilt or inocence" of a person not their final resting place with or without God. That is God's alone and He is more that capitable of doing the job.

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"the memories of a man in his old age,
are deeds of a man in his prime"

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Fljotsdale: Trinity You are correct. They do not accept the trinity teaching, since it is unbiblical and gleaned from much older 'pagan' beliefs. You will quote me chapter and verse here, but till you do, I will not go into details, lol! I hope that clears up a few things, my friend! (I feel you ARE a friend - hope you don't mind!) [/B]

Hey Fjlotsdale, thanks for clearing that up. I guess it comes down to the Trinity aspect then which is I suppose the more central anyhow. What defines a Christian is the belief in Christ as God-become-man who enables relationship with the creator. Other world religions can accept Jesus, but not Jesus as God. In Islam he is the greatest prophet - greater even than Mohammad. In Buddhism he can be reinterpreted as a Guru of sorts, and there are some sections of the Jewish Rabbi community that regard Jesus as a reformer (though quite clearly not all agree of course) What defines a Christian is the belief in God becoming human, experiencing all the crap we go through, and taking on the consequences of our failings himself. Additionally we believe we have the third part of the Trinity - The Spirit - inside us. The concept certainly isn't "unbiblical".... do the JWs use the same bible? I heard it was very different. I heard this years and years ago from a family friend who joined a JW church for a little while as a counter-missionary??!! Yep....

There was a movement in the early church called Arianism which was the first schism - earlier even than the Roman Catholic/Eastern Orthodox schism - which the Germanic tribes converted to. Using various biblical interpretaions, Arianism refuted the concept of the trinity, but died out.

Perhaps this is the main reason why the Christian Church does not embrace the JWs. I actually have a book about the differences at home (Sydney) I'll read it when I get back.

Oh re. the old testament, Pentecostal Churches give a lot of time and importance to the old testament. For example "Prosperity Doctrine" (a pet hate of mine BTW) can only draw credance from the old testament. It is the belief that Gods "Blessings" are material and financial, rather than mental and spiritual/psychological. Brrrrr I've never heard of a Third world Prosperity Preacher, only Rich American or American influenced ones (yes we have them in Oz)


Oh it is in "James" that works are spoken of. Martin Luther argued against James' inclusion because of that very concept and how it could be misinterpreted.

Finally, yeah I'd consider you a friend....


Wulfwere, supression of expression is not always the best option, rather folks should learn the art of debating passionately, yet respecting others views. The Gun debate inspires much passion everywhere it is discussed. Simply brushing it under the carpet or withdrawing from discussion does nothing, the issue will still be there. Better to find a way to be concilliatory yet firm about an issue. We can agree to disagree.

I for one believe the gun is responsible for terrible evils that will not stop until they are removed. I accept that there are those - largely in America, but also in rural Australia (read Queenslanders ) - who believe owning a gun to be a right, necessary, and get quite angry at the prospect of losing that priveliege. I believe people need to make a choice about whether losing a civil liberty for the sake of a reduction in crime is worth the cost.

The argument using Nazi Germany as an example is quite fanciful, as Nazi Germany was an enigma created out of a certain period of turbulance and insecurity, and founded on an entirely different national collective psychology.

Put simply, it simply wouldn't happen in the same way - if at all - because the circumstances are/were totally different.

We should all feel able to discuss an extremely important issue however. The American gun-culture and mass-murder infamy propogated by the media creates copycats all over the world. Australia handled a tough decision very well. We still have a "Shooters Party" and a gun lobby, but these grow further marginalised each year.

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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[This message has been edited by Yorick (edited 06-17-2001).]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Gaelic: When guns are outlawed, law abiding people will not have them. Criminals will! Then they will use them as they choose and leave people defenseless. Thus, I can't support getting rid of them. It is my duty to defend my family the best way possible. Two years ago, someone tried to get in my front door at night. I picked up my gun and waited. He then tried my bedroom window. I moved to that window, which was covered by curtains. I held the gun near the window, slapped the magazine in, and chambered a round. I heard the bushes rustle, and I went to the front door and had my wife lock me out. The little bastard was gone, but for the footprints he left. He was scared off by my gun. Nobody was hurt.

Strange. I had an experience where I busted a thief stealing stuff from my car. All I had to do was yell at him and he ran way. The little bastard was scared off by my voice. Nobody was hurt.



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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!