Northern Ireland and Middle-East

[Diogenes Of Pumpkintown]

Originally posted by Fljotsdale: And the Palestinians aren't, Dramnek? They are no whitewashed angels either. Compromise is ALWAYS possible. There are Jews living in Germany to this day. There are Japanese living in America/Americans in Japan. There are trade agreements and alliences with former sworn enemies throughout human history. Compromise is ESSENTIAL, regardless of crimes against each other by ANY nations. The whole world and his dog would be dead by now if we didn't have compromise.

To quote Delenn from my favorite sci-fi show, Babylon 5: "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth will only make the whole world blind and toothless."

While the situation is tragic and pointless, israel cannot be negotioated with. Becuase first of all israel wants more land and trys to illegal sieze it with its west bank settlements and negotiations in the past have not stopped it(and now with ariel sharon there is no chance) and secondly to do so would be makeing a mockery of human rights by allowing a country guilty of ethnic cleansing and other abuses to get away with it.

Tsk,Tsk

i did NOT say that ALL compremise is bad, just that in this case it is.
The current genration is not responsible for the crimes of a past one. But this is a case of crimes against humanity "right here right now."

[This message has been edited by Dramnek_Ulk (edited 09-07-2001).]

[Fljotsdale]

Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk: While the situation is tragic and pointless, israel cannot be negotioated with. Becuase first of all israel wants more land and trys to illegal sieze it with its west bank settlements and negotiations in the past have not stopped it(and now with ariel sharon there is no chance) and secondly to do so would be makeing a mockery of human rights by allowing a country guilty of ethnic cleansing and other abuses to get away with it.

Dramnek - the human race has been doing that forever!! I challenge you to name ANY country that has not, at some time in its histroy, engaged in ethnic cleansing. We have ALL at some time or another been guilty of abusing human rights, and I bet your country of origin, whatever it is, has done so too. NO country can claim to be Little Miss Innocent, or stand on its soapbox and claim to be more righteous or holier than any other. EVERY country has done good things and incredibly bad things, but in the end they make friends, regardless of past wrongs. WE HAVE to. Unless you would rather we all wiped ourselves out in a frenzy or righteous rage?
We HAVE to be reasonable and reasoning, not stiff-necked and idiotic. We ARE supposed to be the intelligent animals! They WILL compromise in the end, you know.
If they don't they will all be dead, and maybe the rest of the world as well.

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[Fljotsdale]

Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk: Tsk,Tsk i did NOT say that ALL compremise is bad, just that in this case it is. The current genration is not responsible for the crimes of a past one. But this is a case of crimes against humanity "right here right now." [This message has been edited by Dramnek_Ulk (edited 09-07-2001).]

Unreasonableness is unreasonableness, be it in the past ot 'right here and now'. Compromise is essential, be it in the past or 'right her and now'. The time something happens doesn't alter that!

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[Fljotsdale]

Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown: To quote Delenn from my favorite sci-fi show, Babylon 5: "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth will only make the whole world blind and toothless."

LOL! Good one, Dio!

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[Tuor]

Originally posted by Avatar: Agreed. It will all end in tears one way or the other. Anyone from Ireland, Norther Ireland or the Middle East here? I live in the UK, so I don't really have a right to make any swaying comments on other people's lives and future.

I hate to point this out Avater but the UK effectively caused both problems.

We invaded Ireland in the 18th century and there has been trouble there ever since and we were the nation that arbitrarily decided to give Israel to the Jews after promising we wouldn't to the Arabs-who supported us through both world wars.

I'm not advocating a round of apologies from the British government because what is done is done. But at the end of the day if we had not interfered in affair which were nothing to do with us-and we've been doing it for the last 200 years everyone would be a damn sight better off. (I don't include 1914 and 1918 in that)

I think certain other nations should take notice and beware.

In terms of Northern Ireland there will never be a solution because kids are taught to hate the 'other religion' when they are toddlers and I don't know a lot about the Middle East but I suspect the only way that will be solved is in the unlikely event of Israel being blown off the face of the planet.

[Fljotsdale]

Originally posted by Tuor: In terms of Northern Ireland there will never be a solution because kids are taught to hate the 'other religion' when they are toddlers and I don't know a lot about the Middle East but I suspect the only way that will be solved is in the unlikely event of Israel being blown off the face of the planet.

I am English, but was brought up Catholic, in England, in the late 30s and 40s. Catholic kids went to Catholic schools, didn't play with Protestant kids, and any Protestant kids in our school were shunned by the nice righteous Catholic kids.

Come Sundays, Catholics and Protestants had to walk along the same road to church - Catholics one side, Protestants the other side, and the kids hurled insults at each other unrebuked by parents.

This was ENGLAND!! I hate to think what it must have been like in Ireland.

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[Yorick]

Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk: Well then if the Palestinians first moved there in 650 ad and isreal was founded in 1949 that means Palestinians lived there for about 1299 years. IF the Arabs did live there and constituted an etnic majority, during that time that is probably enough to claim rightful ownership of the land. And the basic premise remains that israel uses ethnic cleansing and other evil methods to ensure a jewish majority in "their" lands

So let's look at this. The Arabic Muslims have how much land? Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Tunisia, Algeria, Libya and the Gulf states. All except Saudi Arabia taken by force and invasion displacing absorbing or killing Kurds, Assyrians, Coptic Egyptians, Berbers, Jews and other peoples now minorities in lands that were their homelands for centuries.

How many nations can the Jews live in under a Jewish State? One. Does that small area really mean that much to the Arabs when there are so many other places they can go and speak Arabic, practice Islam and live without the ostracism and persecution that Jews have had in every nation they've been scattered to?




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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[Sir Taliesin]

Yorick, I know why the Palestians can't live in the other Arab lands. Because, none of the other Arab nations trust each other. Jordon came the closest, until Hussian realized that his country was about to be taken over by the PLO. Then he kicked the PLO out (after a lot of fighting). They went next to Tunsia. That Government kept it's thumb on them there and never allowed them to become to strong. All the rest of the Arab nations kept the Palestian people in refugee camps, so they could control them. They also kept them poor and only helped them out with Military supplies and maybe enough food and mediciene to keep them healthy. Other than that I can't see that they did anything else. The refugee camps bred hate. Whole generations were raised in hate in those camps. I often wonder what would have happened had they been assimulated into the other Arab countries.

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Sir Taliesin



If they take my gun can I still use my Axe?