Free Fire Zones-Falllujah

[Djinn Raffo]

Vietnam was a disaster. Nixon should have pulled out in 68 instead of killing millions in a futile war, and helping Pol Pot to take over in Cambodia.

[Timber Loftis]

Or, we shoulda gone "all in" at some point early on -- perhaps 66 or 67. It was simply a failure to shit or get off the pot.

[promethius9594]

agreed with loftis, gradual escallation is perhaps one of the worst war time strategies ever created. i dont know why some people cant figure out that the precepts of sun tsu are STILL in effect today, and that nothing has changed since then. war is still war and its governing factors are still the same. all these strategians feel so brilliant, but all they're doing is retelling sun tsu, that or they arent very good strategists.

[Timber Loftis]

Agreed. A Conan put it, the warrior cherishes 3 things: "To crush the enemy, to see them driven before me, and to hear the lamentation of their women."

If you want a good competition, watch March Madness. If you go to war, you should follow the Powell Doctrine. Strike hard and fast, with overwhelming force, and never allow mission creep.

Which is, incedently, my biggest beef with the war on terror -- by its very definition (as defined at this time) it invites mission creep.

[Timber Loftis]

Not how I woulda done it, but I guess every idea ought to be tested since the standoff was pretty much at an impasse.
___________________________________
CEDING CONTROL OF FALLUJAH
Today's NY Times
April 30, 2004
Troops Cede Control of City to Iraqi Troops
By JOHN KIFNER and EDWARD WONG

FALLUJA, Iraq, April 30 — Marines withdrew today from most of the positions they had taken during the three-week siege of the volatile city of Falluja as the American military began handing over control of security here to a former Iraqi general and up to 1,100 men under his command.

Marines abandoned buildings and bulldozed earthworks in the southern and western neighborhoods and took down concertina wire even as the former general, Jasim Muhammad Saleh, drove into town wearing his old olive-green uniform, with hundreds of residents cheering him along the streets in a hero's welcome.

Though the day was not punctuated by the explosions of laser-guided bombs heard so often this week, attacks on American soldiers continued. Two marines were killed and six were wounded when their patrol was attacked this morning by a suicide car bomb near Camp Falluja, outside the city, said Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, a spokesman for the occupation forces. The attack came a day after eight American soldiers were killed by a suicide car bomb south of Baghdad.

Those deaths capped the bloodiest month for the American military during this war, with at least 128 soldiers killed in combat, nearly a quarter of the total killed in fighting since the start of the invasion last March. Hundreds or more of Iraqi insurgents and civilians have died in battles this month as the American military has fought a two-front war against mostly Sunni Arab insurgents around Falluja, 30 miles west of Baghdad, and Shiite Arab militiamen in cities across the south.

The deaths on both sides have severely eroded American and Iraqi confidence in the campaign, and recent polls in the United States show rapidly growing support for a withdrawal of American troops.

In the southern holy city of Najaf, encircled by 2,500 American soldiers trying to hunt down Moktada al-Sadr, a rebel Shiite cleric, more than 1,000 people protested the Bush administration's decision to loosen a ban on former members of the ruling Baath Party taking part in the government. The protest was led by Sadr al-Din al-Kubanchi, a prominent Shiite cleric, who last week denounced Mr. Sadr and his militia, the Mahdi Army. Black-clad members of that militia attended the rally this afternoon in a show of solidarity that could upset American plans.

American officials have been trying to persuade the Shiite establishment in Najaf to turn against the much-reviled Mr. Sadr, but those efforts could now be complicated by the possibility of the Shiites' presenting a united front against the American administration's new policy on Baathists.

In a mosque in Kufa, five miles north of Najaf, Mr. Sadr told thousands of worshipers that the policy change "proves the Americans hate the Iraqi people" and vowed that he would stay true to the course of jihad, or holy struggle.

At the protest, outside the golden-domed Shrine of Ali in Najaf, Mr. Kubanchi told his followers that "the cleansing of Baathists is an Iraqi issue; it's not an American issue." People in the cheering crowd included members of the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq, a prominent Shiite political party. During much of his rule, Saddam Hussein, a Sunni, oppressed the Shiites, who make up at least 60 percent of the population.

The handover of security responsibilities to an Iraqi military force in Falluja signals the start of the White House's policy rollback. The bloody siege of Falluja has become a rallying point for anti-American sentiments across the Middle East, and the Bush administration has desperately tried to avoid starting a full-scale invasion of the city by the Marines to root out an estimated 2,000 insurgents hiding in a warren of dusty, dun-colored buildings and alleyways.

The sudden reinstitution of General Saleh, reportedly a former member of Saddam Hussein's elite Republican Guard, and 600 to 1,100 former soldiers also marks a major correction of the decision last May by L. Paul Bremer III, the top civilian administrator in Iraq, to dissolve the Iraqi army. That move created a furor that feeds the insurgency in this country to this day.

Marines are training the first battalion of the new Iraqi security force, called the Falluja Brigade, military officials said. They will be assigned initially to checkpoints as most of the marines withdraw to the perimeter of Falluja. General John P. Abizaid, the commander of American forces in the Middle East, cautioned in a teleconference from Qatar that the entry of the Iraqi soldiers would not necessarily quell the insurgency anytime soon.

"We should be very careful in thinking that this effort to build this Iraqi capacity will necessarily calm down the situation in Falluja tonight or over the next several days," he said. "It's a step-by-step effort that will have to include a clear understanding of the security situation."

A spokesman for the American military, Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, declined to provide details about the leader of the new Iraqi force, but said that "he has been carefully chosen, has been initially vetted."

The Marines, who have born the brunt of the fighting on the coalition side of the three-week battle over Falluja, will continue to "maintain a presence in around Falluja" until the new Iraqi "battalion's units demonstrate a capability to man designated checkpoints and positions," General Kimmitt said.

"The coalition objectives remain unchanged — to eliminate armed groups, collect and positively control all heavy weapons and turn over foreign fighters and disarm anti-Iraqi insurgents in Falluja," General Kimmitt said in a Baghdad briefing. "We are certainly not withdrawing from Falluja," he added. "Nothing could be further from the truth. Some of the Marine forces are repositioning around Falluja."

In his briefing from Qatar, General Abizaid expressed a cautious optimism of a "possible breakthrough" in Falluja.

"The opportunity is to build an Iraqi security force from former elements of the army that will work under the command of coalition forces, that will be mentored and worked next to by coalition forces," General Abizaid said.

General Kimmitt emphasized that the Marines would retain authority over the new Iraqi unit.

"This battalion will be recruited largely from former soldiers of the Iraqi army," he said. "The battalion will function as a subordinate command under the operational control of the First Marine Expeditionary Force."

The plan marked a shift in the strategy to end weeks of violence that have cost many American and Iraqi lives as well as support for the war among ordinary Americans.

The top Marine Corps officer in Iraq, Lt. Gen. James T. Conway, explained in an e-mail message on Thursday night that the new Iraqi unit, which he said was formally called the First Battalion of the Falluja Brigade, would be made up of "mostly former Iraqi Army officers and men."

General Conway said a small group of marines would be assigned to the unit as a liaison to American forces. The head of the Iraqi force would be the former commanding general of the 38th Iraqi Infantry Division, and would report to General Conway.

Under the plan, which officials say was proposed by tribal leaders and former Iraqi military officers, Marine units are pulling back from in and around Falluja, to be replaced in stages by some the Iraqi force under direct command of former Iraqi officers.

Placing Iraqis, and not Americans, on the front lines to control thousands of insurgents would seem to help ease several problems for the occupation force. Heavy fighting here early this month transformed Falluja into a symbol of resistance to the occupation, and officials here worried that any new battles, especially ones in which Iraqi civilians died, could stir mass uprisings.

Moreover, the plan would seem to give a greater public role to Iraqi authorities, something United States officials are eager to display amid doubts here about the true extent of power that will be ceded to Iraqis on June 30. Lt. Col. Brennan Byrne of the Marines here called the plan "an Iraqi solution to an Iraqi problem." He added: "They know the populace. They know the terrain."

Another Marine commander also called the arrangement a way to "enfranchise" the Sunni Muslims, the minority that lost its favored position with the fall of Mr. Hussein. The insurgents here are largely Sunni. In addition, he said, it could be a way to pacify the city "without the butcher's bill of having to clear it block by block."

In answer to a question about whether Falluja was a decisive battle, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said on Thursday on MSNBC's "Hardball" program, "Well, there's no question that, for success in Iraq, you can't have a city taken over by a bunch of terrorists and the former regime elements and have that persist over a sustained period of time."

"The marines on the ground are the ones that are making those judgments," he said. "And that's why they calculated that it's in our interests to do it the way they're doing it and to have these discussions with the Sunni tribal leaders."

It is unclear, however, how much power the new Iraqi force will be able to exert over the embattled insurgents, who have shown some military skill and are said to include foreign fighters. There is much skepticism among United States forces about the effectiveness of Iraqi soldiers, many of whom refused to fight alongside Americans in Falluja.

In the surrounded cities of Najaf and Kufa, south of Baghdad, there were reports on Thursday of continuing skirmishes between American soldiers and militiamen loyal to the rebel Shiite Muslim cleric Moktada al-Sadr. Seven mortars were also fired at an American base near Najaf, where Mr. Sadr is hiding out. No injuries were reported.

Today in Najaf, the chief of police said he had begun negotiations with representatives of the rebel cleric leading the insurrection there, Moktada al-Sadr, in an effort to get Mr. Sadr's so-called Mahdi Army to leave the town and allow the police to regain control. But at Friday prayers in Kufa, Mr. Sadr said he would stick to the way of "jihad."

The standoffs in Falluja and Najaf have presented American officials with their most difficult test yet: how to quell two rebellions without stoking still greater anger in Iraq. Military commanders have all but ruled out storming Najaf, a city held holy to Shiites, to capture or kill Mr. Sadr, who led an uprising early this month in several cities.

And amid condemnation in Europe and elsewhere for what some leaders say are heavy-handed tactics in Falluja, American military and civilian officials in Iraq have shown much reluctance to return to all-out fighting here either, despite strong talk from President Bush and other administration officials about ending the insurgency.

On April 5, the Marines threw a cordon around this city of roughly 300,000, following the ambush murder of four American security contractors. Hundreds of Iraqis died in intense fighting, and Falluja emerged among many Iraqis as a rallying cry against the occupation.

Last week, American officials agreed not to restart a military offensive if local leaders could persuade insurgents to hand over their heavy weapons. So far, military officials say, few serviceable weapons have been turned in.

Despite that, American officials said on Sunday that they would defer any large-scale attack in favor of joint patrols with members of the American-recruited security force known as the Iraqi Civil Defense Corps.

Still, there have been repeated clashes, including an attack by an AC-130 Specter gunship on Tuesday night on a truck carrying ammunition or bombs that produced spectacular explosions on live television along with sniper activity. Dozens of Iraqis are believed to have been killed.

The exact source of the new plan remained sketchy, but several military officials said they were approached by military and tribal leaders from Falluja looking for a way to end the violence here.

"They came to us," one ranking officer here said. "We would be foolish not to listen to them."

Soon after taking control of the country last spring, the American-led occupation authority disbanded the Iraqi Army, which many commanders now say was a mistake, and purged members of Mr. Hussein's Baath Party from many positions in society. In recent days, the chief occupation administrator, L. Paul Bremer III, has announced an easing of these rules, including allowing many senior military officers to return to their posts. In a sense, their return may be a first test of this policy.

"The Iraqi military was a respected institution in the society of Iraq," one officer here said. "Not every member of the Iraqi Army is a black-hearted individual."

The plan could also test the tolerance of the many Iraqis, especially among the majority Shiites, who resent any new role for former leaders of Mr. Hussein's government.

Ian Fisher and Christine Hauser reported from Baghdad and Mark J. Prendergast contributed reporting from New York for this article.

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by shamrock_uk: 1) Hamburger Hill

"slow looping curve ball"
http://www.multied.com/Vietnam/Hamburger.html
*NOTE THE WORDS* After 56 Americans are killed and 420 are wounded, the troops capture the hill and kill 597 Vietnamese.
JDH swings: You don't capture a hill when you lose.
"it's OUTA HERE" JDH rounds the bases

Originally posted by shamrock_uk: 2) Khe Sanhs

"Knuckleball"
http://www.multied.com/Vietnam/KheSan.html
*NOTE THE WORDS* In early April,Operation Pegasus is launched to relieve Khe Sanh, finally lifting the seigeon April 14th.
JDH swings:You don't lift(end) a siege in a loss, you are overun and lose everything, you lift(end) a siege in a victory.
"Home Run #2"

Originally posted by shamrock_uk: 3) Hill 881

"FastBall down the pipe"
http://www.multied.com/Vietnam/VicKhesan.html
*NOTE THE WORDS*
During the battle, 160 US servicemen are killed and 764 men wounded - half the effective fighting force. The Communists lose over 940 men as the US forces capture their position.
JDH Swings:CAPTURE CAPTURE CAPTURE need I say more
"Home Run #3

Originally posted by shamrock_uk: 4) Fire Base 6

"Change-Up"
http://www.multied.com/vietnam/dakto.html
*NOTE THE WORDS*
The North Vietnamese are forced to withdraw, with 1,455 dead troops. US casualities number 285 killed and 985 wounded.
JDH swings: You are NOT forced to withdraw if you are victorious.
"Home Run"#4 ( if this is the battle of Dak To you are writing about)
IF NOT. Here are some more links to a later battle please note the second was not a loss either.
http://www.bravecannons.org/History/hist_benhet.html
http://trethard.uta.edu/vietnam_1971.htm

Originally posted by shamrock_uk: How many would you like?

You keep pitching them like those pitches I'll take all you throw at me [img]smile.gif[/img]

JDH sends message to opposing teams manager you better be warming up the "Bullpen" My bat is hot today.

[johnny]

Nice baserunning, but you still lost the Jungleseries. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Or, we shoulda gone "all in" at some point early on -- perhaps 66 or 67. It was simply a failure to shit or get off the pot.

NOW you broke the CODE!!!!! (Though I would argue in '62 when my father did his 1st tour) JDH high fives TL, sits back props feet on desk and lites cigar "I love it when the lighst bulb turns on"

That is why we got out we didn't go into it all the way, our men were betrayed by the leadership of this nation, and then the people of this nation followed suit a few years later. Out of their shame and failure to demand we "KICK BUTT" or leave, it dragged on people were killed and some of the Long haired MF type pukes cried loss, and closed the door. As I have said all along WAR is not nice and is terrible but when it is entered into it must be done fully and completely.

[ 05-04-2004, 03:05 PM: Message edited by: John D Harris ]

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by johnny: Nice baserunning, but you still lost the Jungleseries. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

No South Veitnam lost the jungleseries, they were still in power when we pulled out [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Timber Loftis]

John D., we so lost that war. You gotta quit defending the lost causes of the conservative causes in America. I wholeheartedly agree that it was a lack of political will -- but we lost. All the history books our kids read will teach that, and rightfully so. I'd love to link in film footage of the evacuation of Hanoi in 1973 to drive my point home, but I think you get the gist of it. The NVA took South Vietnam from the ARVN, and in doing so, we lost. It's purdy simple, my friend.