Free Fire Zones-Falllujah

[promethius9594]

Originally posted by johnny: Well, you must be the only person then who claims that the US didn't lose the Vietnam war. Little hard to admit perhaps ? Face it, you DID lose the war. The south, whom you were to protect, was overrun by the communists, and the US had to pull out all their troops. How do you call that... a tactical manouvre ?

Well, hes not the only one, and heres why:

1) Vietnam war, despite its misnomer, was not actually a war. it was a conflict.

2) america ultimately won every single battle it fought. More bombs were dropped on vietnam than on germany during WWII. Casualties on the enemy side were significantly larger than on the americans side, despite the fact that the americans were outnumbered, victimized by undercover assaults, and unfamiliar with the territory. Tactically, vietnam was a victory.

3) America's leaving did not result in S. Vietnam being captured. It resulted in a truce. It wasnt until a couple years later that N. Vietnam once again invaded the south, and this time america chose not to intervene. All troops were ALREADY gone, and only military advisors remained.

4) the REASON america left was not defeat. It was because the american populace quit supporting the war. It was for votes. leaving vietnam bought a presidential victory, it helped ALOT of political careers. Media put negative slants on everything so that they could push a gruesome story to a battle blazed public who finally got sick of the product but still couldnt help paying to get their fix on bad news. Ultimately vietnam wasnt a loss for democracy so much as a gain for political manuevering and media dishonesty.

[johnny]

Oh... now it wasn't a war, but a conflict ? Then tell me, because i fail to see the difference, weren't two armies shooting at eachother ? For years in a row ? War...conflict...reunion... who cares.

The fact remains that the US failed. Numbers don't mean anything. So you killed more VC and NVA than GI's died ? You won every battle ? The Germans killed over 3.000.000 Russian soldiers, and took an estimated 650.000 additional Russians as POW, they won every battle during the first months of Barbarossa, but still they were pushed back. And so was the US, despite having air supremacy, and superior firepower.

Hearing that the US didn't lose the Vietnam war, sounds just as ridiculous as when i heard that Saddam declared himself victorious after the US pulled back their forces after the first Gulf war. Kids in Iraq actually learn that in history class, how the mighty Iraqi army destroyed the forces of the Great Satan. Perhaps your historyclasses are a little off balance too ?

[Donut]

The person who claimed that history is written by the victors was clearly wrong.

BTW - did you know that Arsenal beat Man U in the semi final of the cup and play Millwall in the final?

We also knocked Chelsea out of the CL.

[ 04-21-2004, 07:39 AM: Message edited by: Donut ]

[John D Harris]

You had better read some history, We pulled out FIRST then the south was over run!!!!!!!! Please check the date of the U.S pull out and the Date Siagon Fell, Any of you world history buffs want to bet me which came first.

If you had a clue as to what was going on you would understand the U.S. leadership played around. Nobody can refute that Oh, you may try but you will fail and fail misserably each and every time. NOBODY can Name one single battle the U.S. Military lost, COME ON PEOPLE I DARE YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SOMEBODY please put their money where their mouth is!!! Have some testonerone producing Glands. WE WALKED AWAY, to compare it to Gulf war 1 and Sodamn Insane's claims is total assinine stupidity. I'm so sick and tired of hearing the BS from people about how we lost, if anybody had even the smallest amount of brain activity, they would realize we could have crushed the North like a bug and not even blinked. Our leadership held back our military from doing what it was meant to do. Vietnam was like the NY Yankees playing a little league team, and everytime the Yankees got on base the coaches would make them return to the dugout. THERE IS A HELL OF A DIFFERANCE between walking to the dugout because you are ordered to, and having to go to the dugout because you made an OUT (LOST). You people don't have a *#@%^$#*&%$@# clue as to the imbalance of military power that exisits in the world now or in the 60's. The safest place to be was where the USSR's missles were aimed they couldn't hit anything. The USSR WAS a paper tiger.

[ 04-22-2004, 11:18 PM: Message edited by: John D Harris ]

[Timber Loftis]

Well, I'll be sure to ask my dad about all the military successes his company enjoyed in the Mekong Delta the next time I talk to him.

We went in to prevent the NVA from overrunning the ARVN and taking the full country. Guess what -- we didn't stop them. A loss is a loss is a loss. Whatever the reasons for it, however silly and political they may be, it was a war we lost. I'm not the only one in this wide world who will point at you and laugh for suggesting otherwise. Running with tail-between-legs = lost.

Additionally, a war is a war is a war. Call it a police action, a military advisory, a political conflict, or a tea party -- it does not change the reality. President seeks to send troops, congress approves, equals a war. I'm sure you'll feel free to disagree. And I'll feel free to point and laugh some more.

The person who claimed that history is written by the victors was clearly wrong.

There's a right funny statement, by our favorite humorous twitterer. Good one, Mr. Pastry.

[ 04-23-2004, 12:42 AM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

[Yorick]

What a bizzarre and hilarious thread.

Anyhow, you guys are all forgetting THE AUSSIES!!! Who were in Vietnam as well.

Australia didn't lose any war. We didn't lose any desert, surf, beach or mountain. WE ROCK!!!

[johnny]

I don't recall the Yankees ever losing 60.000 players against a minor league team. And you have the nerve to tell other people they need to grow a brain, after making statements like that ?

Sheesh... talk about living in denial.

[The Hierophant]

Some friends invite you to come over to their place and play a game of poker with them against some local rivals. You have a great deal more money in your pool than anyone else at the table, so you assume it should be a fun, relatively easy game. Plus you'd love to help your friends beat these guys that have been giving them no end of trouble lately.
You win a few hands, things are looking good.
More and more people join the game, bringing more and more chips with them.
The ante keeps climbing.
And climbing.
And climbing.
Your money pool starts to dwindle as you have to bet more and more chips to keep up with the raising stakes. Whatsmore, your friends arn't particularly well-off and have come to really depend on loans from you in order to stay in the game. All the while, your wife and kids are imploring you to stop playing the game because they think you should be focusing more on the needs of your family and that you shouldn't be getting involved in conflicts in a different neighbourhood.
Eventually, you decide the game is getting a little too serious, and your commitments to it are growing to large to maintain without really hurting your bank balance.
You decide to fold and take yourself out of the game. You say to yourself it was a wise move in order to cut your losses, but everyone else at the table snickers at you behind your back and calls you a chickenshit loser. All the while, the friends you started playing the game with a out-betted and lose their shirts to their local rivals, who in turn are indebted to the high-rolling newcomers who loaned them alot of chips in order for them to stay in the game.

[ 04-23-2004, 04:24 AM: Message edited by: The Hierophant ]

[promethius9594]

are you all daft? history shows we at least temporarily accomplished the goal we were going for in vietnam. The objective was to repulse the attack on s. vietnam by pushing them back and forcing a truce.

I hope you all realize that that is exactly what happened. We LEFT prior to N. vietnam renigging and attacking again and we decided not to go back. i dont think people quite understand the awesome force of the american military. ONE air craft carrier, with its troops, planes and support ships could hold saigon indefinately against the entire northern vietnamese army. American troops were outnumbered twenty to one in korea, and still managed to force a truce with CHINA ... CHINA, the flipping largest military in the world!!! we didnt get beat out, we QUIT!

it was more than a year before the north attacked the south. one year with our troops leaving. by the time the north invaded only a small contingent of a couple thousand military advisors remained, and america wasnt going to fight again. We didnt fight that conflict to destroy the north, we fought it to keep the south from being overrun, which we accomplished temporarily with the truce that was declared (a truce which we later chose not to enforce, for which vietnam is still paying the consequences).

[johnny]

Some interresting facts i've learned lately...

*The US did NOT lose the Vietnam war, and they accomplished everything they stood for, leaving the country in a victory parade.

*The Mossad are a terrorist organisation

*Osama Bin Laden is a shooting guard for the Kabul Timberwolves

*Adolf Hitler was a Zulu witchdocter before going into politics.

Keep it coming guys, we're rewriting history overhere.