What is your view on China?

[K T Ong]

Hmmmm...

One thing I can tell you folks -- any generalisations you care to make will be simplistic in the extreme when applied to a country with more than 1 billion people, an area the size of all Europe and more than 5,000 years of history. Fujian can be more different from Beijing than France from Germany. And the experiences of one dynasty can be very different from those of another.

As for hating it... Ah, well, guess you can't please everyone under the sun.

But before you jump to simplistic conclusions about China... look, go do some serious reading. I'm sure you've all got something called a library card, right?

[ 08-22-2002, 08:35 PM: Message edited by: K T Ong ]

[johnny]

Originally posted by K T Ong: Hmmmm...

You didn't expect a China bashing thread, did you ?

[K T Ong]

Some like China, some hate China. Same with any other country... (Shrugs shoulders.)

[johnny]

Originally posted by K T Ong: Some like China, some hate China. Same with any other country... (Shrugs shoulders.)

China is worth the thought. They were highly developed when our ancestors ran around in rags hunting deer. They invented gunpowder, had bankingsystems, build monuments, while the rest of the world was.... well... living in the woods. I'm just curious what happened to all that. Is it because of the invasion of the Mongol hordes ?

[johnny]

Originally posted by K T Ong: Hmmmm... One thing I can tell you folks -- any generalisations you care to make will be simplistic in the extreme when applied to a country with more than 1 billion people, an area the size of all Europe and more than 5,000 years of history. Fujian can be more different from Beijing than France from Germany. And the experiences of one dynasty can be very different from those of another. As for hating it... Ah, well, guess you can't please everyone under the sun. But before you jump to simplistic conclusions about China... look, go do some serious reading. I'm sure you've all got something called a library card, right?

Are you that afraid we all have a bad impression of China ? You might be surprised how much of us don't.

[K T Ong]

To dear beloved johnny: [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Yes, I'm afraid you'll have an impression of us bloody Chings as poor as your impression of Muslims. Nah, just pulling your leg...

More seriously, good impressions can actually be just as misleading. Some people in 18th-century France, such as Voltaire, have painted a picture of China that was simply too beautiful to be true (would be nice if it were true, though ). Not every Chinese is a wise, courteous Confucian scholar. (I come close, though -- there I go blowing my trumpet again... [img]tongue.gif[/img] )

I guess Sazerac put it best -- China's just like any other culture. Some good, some bad, and people just trying to make sense of life and what it has to offer. (Same with the Islamic world, be it said!)

Will be looking forward to Sazerac's page on Chinese wizards, BTW. Cheers!

[johnny]

K T Ong, no need to call me dear beloved Johnny, i know you don't like me The probable reason for that is my view on Islam. That's fine with me, we don't have to be buddies, but we don't have to be enemies either. If you think i compare the Islamic world to the Chinese world and all its background, you better think again. No matter what you think of me, i highly respect the Chinese people and everything they accomplished in the past. Study Chinese history is almost impossible in one lifetime, it is that rich. As i said before, they were the first civilized people on this planet (for what that means). But somehow we, the westerners caught up with you, in quite a short period. Somewhere, somehow in Chinese history something went wrong, and i'd appreciate it if you have a link to a site so i can study that myself. No joke here, Chinese history had always my interrest. Surprised ?

[Azred]

China could be a really great nation if they would just give up their obsession with the Communist party; rather, if those ruling China would give up their obsession. Seriously, all Mao did was trash a lot of really good traditions....

Other than that, I think of the millenia of fascinating history, the art, the food, and their opera. The traditional music--I apologize, but I just can't understand it. One of my few shortcomings....

re: martial arts. It is a shame to see what has happened to martial arts since people began abandoning the philosophical aspects. It's all just punching and kicking without any higher purpose in mind; even the village idiot can do it. Oh, well.

[img]graemlins/doh.gif[/img] How could I forget the philosophy? How can you not have a copy of the Te-Tao Ching and The Art of War on your bookshelf?

[ 08-22-2002, 10:42 PM: Message edited by: Azred ]

[K T Ong]

To johnny:

No, not all that surprised (but pleased nevertheless [img]smile.gif[/img] ). I know you won't compare us Chinese with (your picture of) Muslims. All I ask is that you take a more charitable view of Islam -- there are many Muslims who are genuinely opposed to violence. Heck, a culture that can produce such marvels as Persian carpets must have a few good points, surely. Ah, well, I leave it to you to figure it out...

And no, I don't think the Chinese were the first civilised people on earth. The Babylonians and Egyptians had a much earlier headstart. The Chinese just lasted much longer. As for the 'something, somewhere' that went wrong in Chinese history, I think every culture has its ups and downs -- and China just happened to be going through a down at a time when the West coincidentally just happened to be going through an up.

To Azred:

Socialist philosophy has its good points. Mao just carried it to extremes. I mean, looking at how China's doing right now, you can't say that the ruling party isn't doing its job, right?

And BTW, you've switched the positions of the Tao and the Te.

All right, a little quiz on Chinese culture for you folks (I'm sure Moni will score full marks for this ):

1. Name the Four Books that comprise the central corpus of Confucianism.

2. Which Chinese philosopher dreamt of being a butterfly, and upon waking up could not tell whether he's a man who just dreamt of being a butterfly or a butterfly who's dreaming of being a man?

3. In which classical Chinese novel do you find a hero who slew a tiger with bare hands, and what's the hero's name?

4. In which classical Chinese novel do you find three men swearing an oath of brotherhood in a peach garden? One of them has been canonised as a god who's widely worshipped today. Which one?

5. Which contemporary Chinese novelist (he's still alive and well) wrote 14 novels (belonging roughly to the genre of historical fiction but with a great deal of martial arts thrown in) that have sold more than a billion copies worldwide -- not to mention being made into many films, comics and TV serials? (Oh, yes, we have our own Tolkien, too! )

[ 08-23-2002, 01:33 AM: Message edited by: K T Ong ]

Gee, thanks for the NO PRESSURE K T Ong! [img]smile.gif[/img]
I would have bet Charean against myself lol.

1. The Analects, the Da Xue (Higher Education), Zhong Yong (Center of Harmony) and the Book of Mencius.

2. Master Chiang Tzu or (Chiang Chou)

3. I dunno, but that sounds like a good story. [img]smile.gif[/img] Pass on the title and I will be sure to read it (if I haven't already, I tend to forget a lot of things)

4. Three Kingdoms? I don't know which one was canonized but my guess would be Liu Xuande (sp?)

5. I can only guess. Jin Yong?

Ow, my brain hurts LOL