Concerning Prestige Classes

[Poison Dart Frog]

Any knowledgable NWN players out there care to write up a brief Build Guide to the Prestige classes? Perhaps explaining what classes to start with, quickest way to get there, etc. Any advice would be appreciated.

[ 12-07-2003, 07:21 PM: Message edited by: Poison Dart Frog ]

[Stratos]

There's rarely a specific class to start with if you want a Prestige Class, just some requirements to fulfill. The question you asked is very broad and difficult to answer so you have to be more specific.

Take for example the Arcane Archer...

The requirement for this PrC is the following ( taken from the manual for SoU):
Race: Elf or Half-Elf
Base Attack Bonus: +6
Feats: Weapon Focus Longbow or Shortbow, Point Blank Shot
Spellcasting: Ability to cast arcane spells

Now anyone fulfilling these requirements can become Arcane Archers if they wish. All classes will eventually get a BAB of +6, the feats are feats anyone can take and to meet the spellcasting requirement you only need one level of Wizard, Sorcerer or Bard. A warrior type is probably the best choice for this PrC but any character who wants to become a good range weapon expert benefits from it. Bard/AA is a very decent build and even spellcaster can make possible AA's. The most common, though, is still to take levels of Fighter or Ranger until you have the BAB and feats required, then take a level of an arcane spellcaster and then AA all the way. But anything works really and that's the case with most PrC's.

There are five PrC's in SoU and six new ones in HotU, so you'll have to be more specific in what you want to know.

[ 12-07-2003, 08:03 PM: Message edited by: Stratos ]

[Sparhawk]

I´ve got a good question in that direction then.

I´ve got a fighter at lvl. 6 and he´s pretty descent.

he meets the requirements of Weaponmaster next lvl.up BUT why should I change to become a weaponmaster...I´m already strong with the whirlwind att. and my double katanas wielding good damage.

[ The weapons are: ]

Sword Saint Katana +1
dmg.bonus vs. alignment group evil: 1d6 sonic

Blood Katana +2
regenration vampiric +2
skill bonus: parry +5

[Stratos]

The Weapon Master is made for people who wants to focus on one kind of weapon entirely, and are willing to give up versatility using many weapon types to more damage and power using one type. If you want a character that focus all his training on one kind of weapon then the WM seems to have an edge over the Fighter.

I haven't played WM myself yet, so this is all speculation.

[SpiritWarrior]

The WM seems to be a spiritual fighter adhering to no ethos unlike Paladins. In effect It's a monk who channels Ki into a chosen weapon they bond with.

[Sparhawk]

Okaiii....then I´ll go with WM since I like him dualling those katanas

[ScottG]

OK,

First off the prestige classes for SOU are found here, (with there requirements):

http://nwn.bioware.com/shadows/prestige_classes.html

And the prestige classes for HOTU are found here, (with there requirements):

http://nwn.bioware.com/underdark/prestige_classes.html

Remember on those requirements that require an attack rating you must look at the BASE attack level (i.e. strip your character down to nothing and for monks disregard your unarmed bonus). Likewise those that require skills must have the BASE skill points neccesary - you'll see what your base is when you level-up in the skill point section.

If you want to try any of these combinations quickly then I'd suggest downloading a leveler program here, (but it will only take you to level 20):

http://www.xmission.com/~wysiwyg/

Basic Notes: Remember that you can ONLY have 3 total classes and at least 1 MUST be a non-prestige class BEFORE any prestige class can be selected. Additionally you cannot go beyond 10 levels of any prestige class UNLESS your eleventh level is character level 21 or more.

Going from SOU to HOTU in the order presented on the web sites:

Arcane Archer: An overrated class - the really good stuff here is the bonus damage (and the bonus to hit compensates for the lower base attack). Imbue Arrow is nice also. The other feats are gimicks and really don't work well. The best class structure here is either enhancing a fighter with one or more levels as a sorceror OR going for 9 levels as a bard and then switching to an AA. Caution: Remember all ranged attacks with in melee range of opponents will incure SUBSTANTIAL attacks or oppurtunity - BUT ONLY IF YOUR GAME SETTING is set more difficult than NORMAL.

Assasin (Edited): This class is all about the first strike - which makes its use rather limited. If the opponent is immune to sneak attacks then you have a SERIOUS problem. The Death Attack functions like a sneak attack BUT it has a chance for paralyzation AND unfortunetly it ONLY WORKS FOR THE FIRST ATTACK (essentially), when the victim isn't in combat mode. Once the victim is in combat mode then NO MORE DEATH ATTACKS. (Remember the normal Sneak Attack or a Rogue works during attacks of opportunity and when concealed, etc. - In otherwords Sneak attacks work during combat.) This is a SERIOUS limitation to this class and frankly because of it I wouldn't suggest it at all. The reason I wouldn't suggest it is because its really nothing more than a Bonus to a Rogue's sneak attack - and if you plan on switching over to another class you should be "filling-in" other limitations of the Rogue class (like poor melee capability). The reason you need to melee-up your Rogue abilities is precisly when confronting opponents immune to sneak attack - and additionally increasing your chance to hit and your number of attacs. Additionally Assasins get hosed on special Rogue feats like Improved Evasion. All in all a far to limited class.

Blackguard: This is essentially a fighter with some extra sneak attack damage. The downside here is that there isn't as much sneak attack damage (as a rogue or assasin). The upside is that the hit dice is the same as a fighter (and base attack). On top of this you have the additional compensation of the level 2 modifiers and the spell bull's strength once per day AND an undead summon that increases with level. (The other spells are useless.) All in all a pretty good class. Like the Assasin (or rogue add-on) you will want to have a high initiative for increased attacks of oppurtunity (to get in your sneak damage). And again you will want a weapon with a function (like daze, stun, blindness, etc.) that will allow for additional sneak attacks. In comparison to a pure fighter you are loosing the additional feats every other level EXCEPT when moving into the epic levels. (Which naturally suggests a Blackguard starting after 11 or more levels of a fighter.) In comparison to a pure Cleric you are loosing a LOT of spell casting power but are gaining better hit dice, base attacks and number of attacks, and of course sneak attacks and the charisma modifiers. Frankly this class is for either the monster melee'er via the fighter to blackguard route OR a monster sneak attacker via a rogue to Blackguard. My preferance is 1st Rogue 13 levels (giving 2 of the special rogue feats - one of which wiil be Improved Evasion), LOTS of skills (and in particular the "use magic item" skill) AND a very high Hide and Move Silently, while providing a monsterous 7d6 of sneak attack. On top of that consider at least one level in the next class. Or 10 levels in the next class that confers everything but the additional sneak attack damage. (Perhaps the minimum number of levels as a fighter then as a Blackguard alternating back and forth with levels as a Shadow Dancer.)

Shadow Dancer: This class is ALL about allowing sneak attack damage again and again - as well as confering better overall AC by being concealed (similarly to Improved Invisibility or Displacement). The Hide in Plain site feat is the "killer app" here but it can be tricky to use (search the SOU/HOTU portion of this forum to figure out how best to use it), it is the feat that allows you the sneak attack damage and the improved effective AC. On top of all this you get a summoning that improves with level, AND the best of the rogue specific feats (improved evasion, defensive roll, slippery mind). Addtionally you get an incresing Defensive shield to use 3 times a day!! Certainly one of the BEST of the Prestige classes (perhaps THE best if used properly). Note: because of the really good rouge-like feats already added by this class I would really only consider a rogue with 1 level as a Shadow Dancer to pick up the "Hide in Plain Sight" feat. Otherwise consider a different class so that you aren't duplicating feats (like the upper level rogue feats as well as evasion and uncanny dodge). This class works particularly well with the Blackguard class in fuctionality because of that classe's additional sneak attack damgage. As an added usefull perk you'll get Darkvision as well.

Harper Scout: "see the toilet bowl".

Red Dragon Disciple: The power gamer's choice for increasing attributes AND AC, ++. Holy Crap Batman! At level 10 you have +8 to Str., +2 to Con., +2 Int., and +2 to Chr.!!!!! In addition to this add +4 to your AC. Now pony-up immunities to paralyzation, sleep, and fire.. (and the fire is the "biggie" - consider how many spells and monster attack use fire). Also add on the increasing hit dice for additional hit points. Now finish off with a once per day increasing fire breath attack and the cool esthetic of wings. After realing from the excess consider how many ways this class can be used in conjunction with other classes. Remember though - it requires a base of 8 in Lore and either 1 level as a Sorceror or a Bard. Well lets start from the top then.. +8 in str. adds an additional +4 to hit and +4 to damage to a melee attack OR it allows a mage class character to not be so pathetically weak (where often you'll find a total of 8 str. for such characters).
Because of the Monster increase in str. (and the addition to con.) here I'd suggest considering a melee type character. Additionally consider that you have a +2 to Charisma. This then suggests either a Paladin, Blackguard, or Chapion of Torm (with there respective bonuses for Charisma). If its either of the latter then you will need to start with at least 5 levels as a Sorceror or Bard (to get the class requirement AND the Lore requirement settled). Here the choice is pretty clear - go for your first levels as a Sorceror, AT LEAST 6 - Peferably 8!!!! The reasons why are the types, (level included), and quantities of spells available. For HOTU you have several melee specific spells available to Sorcerors (primary: level 1 True Strike, level 2 Flame weapon, level 3 Keen edge, level 4 Stoneskin or Improved Invisibility; Secondary: level 1 Mage Armor and Shield, level 2 Death armor, level 3 Displacement, level 4 Elemental shield. Note: if you have level 4 spells and choose Improved Invisibility you may want to select something other than 3rd level Displacement unless you want that protection available a LOT each day). At level 6 the Sorceror has access to level 3 spells at level 8 the sorceror has access to level 4 spells. HELLO! Two extra levels as a sorceror seems a small price to pay for a minimum of 3 level 4 spells. If you go the Blackguard route then I'd almost say you were a Fool not to get the level 4 spells for the Improved Invisibility. Note however that either of these two class routes (Blackguard or Champion of Torm) does not require you to add on those extra Sorceror levels imeadiatly - you can still dual over to the Red Dragon at level 6 and pick-up the addition Sorceror Levels latter, (frankly though I'd still go to level 6 Sorceror and then dual at level 7 to Red Dragon Disciple).

Alternativly you could go with a Paladin for most of your levels and pick-up one or more levels as a Sorceror before switching to the Red Dragon Disciple class - and then switching back to the Paladin after hitting level 10 as a RDD, (with perhaps some levels as a Sorceror. (Ex. 4 levels as Paladin, saving up your skill points for when dualing over to Sorceror, then at level 5 dualing to Sorceror and cranking up the Lore skill to 8, then at level 6 switching to RDD, and finally at level 16 changing back to a Paladin.) Remember though that these are only looking at the benifits of melee attackers with Charisma modifiers.

Caution: the negatives of spell casting and armor still apply so unless the duration of the spell is significant, (and you can cast it well before combat by taking your armor off and then puting your armor back on after finishing the spell), you run the risk of the spell fizziling in combat IF your wearing armor.


If your more interested in spell casting in addition to melee then consider a Monk for 2 levels, 3 levels as a Sorceror, then the next 10 as a RDD, then switching back to Sorceror. (and you won't be using armor here so spell failure isn't a problem.) This class combination Monk/Sorceror/RDD is also one of the most powerfull combinations.

Alternativly for melee class usage without charisma modifiers you do any of the non-prestige melee classes and add one level of sorceror. Or if you want a RDD and a another workable PRESTIGE class (weapon master, dwarven defender, or perhaps Shadow Dancer), then you can go the Sorceror route as mentioned above for Blackguards and Champions of Torm. (Again though remember you could have spell casting problems with armor.)

Any way you slice it this is a FANTASTIC class.

Dwarven Defender: This is another good class, and what I'd call the "Tank" of the group. Its completly melee oriented. And the real bonuses occur at levels 6 and 10 where they achieve damage reduction and the ability to not be flanked, (which will significantly reduce sneak attacks). Otherwise this class is nothing more than a Barbarian for a Dwarf. One of the really nice features of this class is that the damage reduction increases at epic levels w/out having to select it as a feat!!!! SO if you want a melee dwarf then consider this class starting at a minimum of level 11. Until then the class selection is up to you. If your interested in building up your attributes then consider a Sorceror/RDD/Dwarven Defender, (as noted above in the RDD section). If you want to improve your criticals for your weapon then consider a Fighter/Weapon Master/Dwarven Defender. If you want some spell capability (without armor check penalties) then consider a Cleric (more rpg'ish) or a Druid (less rpg'ish). Of course many other classes will compliment this class - its up to you to see which you like best.

Pale Master: This class screams Wizard add-on, (not Sorceror for reasons stated below). The key to this class rests with language at the bottom of the Abilities section which states: "Every 2 levels, the pale master gains additional spells per day, as if they had leveled in their previous spell caster class. This gain only applies to spells per day and not caster level." In other words you'll need to get to at least level 17 as a Wizard before this class should be selected. Why? At level 17 you have achieved the maximum spell level of 9, if you didn't do this then you would have more times to use spells per day but not greater power spells, (you would be stuck at a lower level - 8 or less depending on when you made the switch). In otherwords you want to max out the power of the spells by reaching the highest spell level. As you continue on with the Pale Master you will continue to recieve extra spells as you would if you were continuing on as a wizard every other level.

Well then whats the payoff? Primarily several nice immunites and increases to AC. Additionally you'll get extra increasing Undead Summoning (essential for spell casters against high spell resitance opponents and large groups of opponents), paralysis ability, and some extra hitpoints. All in all its there to enable you to better withstand melee and ranged attacks. The real bonus here is the immunity to criticals - something that can be devistating to a spell caster.

So, why not a Sorceror? Well first off a Wizard reaches 9th level spells at level 17 vs. a Sorceror at level 18. Next a Sorceror already has an abundance spells per day, a Wizard however could use more. Most importantly both spell casting classes stop their dc, (the ability of their opponents to make a saving throw and negate, or partially negate, the effects of an offensive spell), when they stop leveling up in that class. To overcome this effect you have several feats and epic feats available to counter this: Spell penetration, Epic Spell penetration, Spell Focuses for each type of spell (8 total), and Epic Spell Focuses for each type of spell (also 8 total). In addition of course there are MANY other feats a spell caster would want: particularly Combat Casting and Greater Combat Casting. ONLY WIZARDS get the bonus spell feats. Sorcerors only recieve the normal amount of feats. This effectivly means that by character level 17 a wizard will have 3 more feats to choose from than the Sorceror - feats that can substantially improve their dc. In practice though you won't need all 8 spell focuses, you will need at least Evocation and probably Necromancy, (Illusion, Divination, and Enchantment would also be nice depending on what spells you use offensivly). Additionally Increased initiative feats I consider mandatory for spell casters (i.e. Improved Initiative and much latter Superior Initiative.)

For an additional class consider the Shadow Dancer which will provide even greater levels of Defense. Consider a very high stealth with the hide in plain sight feature - allowing a very high concelment bonus before casting a spell just about any condition.

Champion of Torm: "The other white meat!" Essentially a cross between a Paladin and a Fighter. However if you look at the bonuses carefully you'll see that the Champion of Torm can actually compliment a Paladin's abiilites, (i.e. the bonuses don't overlap). So for the most part people will look at this class as an add-on to a Paladin, because it is so concentrated on Charisma for it perks. However because of the charisma bonuses you might also consider this class combined with a Sorceror or Bard for the spell casting ability - BUT remember you will have armor check penalties to consider when casting the spells. Alternativly of course you could always combine this with another melee class (or classes), such as Dwarven defender, Weapon master, Ranger, Barbarian, etc. - to achieve Paladin-like abilities without having to be a Paladin.

So whats the good stuff? Bonus feats like Fighters, (which pretty much makes a Fighter redundant except possibly for the extra +2 damage from weapon specilization and latter on the additional +4 from epic weapon specilization - not worth the class expenditure in my opinion). Increases in savings throws NOT dependent upon Charisma levels. The partially Charisma dependent Smite Evil for piling on the damage on those really tough opponents once per day, (this by the way is the only "overlaping" feat with the Paladin). And finally the "all in one" Divine Wrath that adds even more savings throw bonuses, damage and attack bonuses, and of course damage reduction.

So why the natural choice of a Paladin? Well first off Paladin's essentially Top-Out at level 2 of all things. The bonuses at level 3 are worthless and the time it takes to recieve spell casting is absurd, as are the quantity of spells and their ability for the most part.. (also the need for wisdom, while minor, is still annoying). But within those first two levels are a LOT of nice things that REALLY complement the Champion of Torm. Divine Grace at 1st level gives bonuses to ALL savings throws via the Charisma bonus, (ex. a charisma of 20 gives a +5 bonus to all savings throws). Now stack this with 10 levels of a Champion of Torm and you now have a +10 to all savings throws ALL THE TIME! This means for the most part you will make you savings throws against most types of spells, traps, various attacks, etc.. Of course Divine Wrath will allow you to increase this even further, (ex. charisma of 20 = another +5 to a total of +15 available once per day). As if that weren't enough you also get 2 VERY worthwhile immunities: Immunity to Disease & Immunity to Fear. Rounding out a melee character capable of taking on Melee and Magic alike.

But wait! there is more - you still can utilize another class becaus you only needed 2 levels as a Paladin. If you want to add sneak attacks via levels as a rogue you can - and you can do this starting at level 3. If you want to add an additional prestige class then you will be waiting almost as long or longer, (than the switch to the Champion of Torm) before you can switch depending on the class. Consider the Shadow Dancer or the Dwarven Defender for greater defensive capability. Consider the Weapons Master for greater offensive capability, (particularly if you want excellent criticals).

It may not seem inopposite to the Champion of Torm, but instead of the Paladin route you could also go for a Blackguard (that has "seen the light", OR conversly a Champion of Torm that has been "seduced by evil"), provided of course you meet the alignment (and other requirements) at the appropriate time. Again the Blackguard is VERY similar to the Paladin in the most important sense - that they have savings throw bonuses related to charisma bonuses. (For Blackguard extras see "Blackguard" above.) If you do decide to go the Blackguard to Champion route (or Champion to Blackguard) then consider your base class first. Because most of your levels will be tied up in strong melee classes (Champion & Blackguard) I personally would consider the base class as a rogue - (for skill diversity, addtional rogue feats, and extra sneak attack damage), perhaps as mentioned above in Blackguard section. Which should you continue on with for your final class? Thats a tougher call. The Blackguard at epic levels continues getting sneak attack increases every 3 levels AND their fiend summon gets stronger. On the otherhand the Champion of Torm continues every 2 levels to increase all their savings throws. The answer to this question for most part is more than likely found in your base class. If your base class is a rogue then you will already have several increases to your sneak attack and may not feel the need for more - in this instance then you would be better off continuing with the Champion of Torm. If however you had another base (perhaps a Cleric or Barbarian), then you may want to continue with the Blackguard (and additionally have the increasing str. of you fiendish summon).

The Weapon Master: This class is ALL about the critical hit. While unfortunetly it requires a slew of feats for admission (though they are feats you would most likely want for this class anyway - the only problem then is that it takes a while to get them in your base class), it has the benifit (unlike the others) of essentially Topping-Out at level 7. This of course means that you only have to "invest" seven levels in this class to get the real benifits of this class. The downside to this is that it doesn't really pay-off untill you hit level 7 either. Another negative is that its only happening for one melee weapon type. So if the opponent is immune to your melee weapons damgage type your up a creek. Also if the opponent is immune to criticals you'll have some problems, (and the class really isn't worth it then). Typically large creatures like Dragons, the undead, constructs, elementals, and the occasional bad guy are immune to criticals - so if you think you'll be encountering this type of opponent often then I'd say spend your 7 levels elsewhere unless you had other offensive capability that compensated. Typically however you will have other offensive capability and the Weapon Master class is the added bonus you'll use say 70% of the time.

So whats so special here? At level 7 your critical threat range drops by 2 - essentially as if you had a Keen Weapon. Also at level 5 your criticals increase by a factor of X1. So how do we best take advantage of this? First look for weapons with the lowest critical threat ranges, which are: Rapiers and Scimitars with 18-20/X2. Of course next you'll want weapons that have the Keen function which lowers the threat range even further. Additionally, when you've met the base attack requirements, you'll want to select your chosen weapon for the Improved Critical feat. Finally you'll want to dual-wield them for the additional attack(s). Of course Dual-wielding will mean that you'll need the 3 additional feats (ambidexterity, two weapon fighting and improved two weapon fighting). With these weapons, the improved critical feat, and the additional +2 from the weapon master class you should typically achieve a critical per hit better than 50% of the time (i.e. every other hit will be a critical). And with the extra X1 you'll have a total critical of X3 which should be SERIOUS damage. IF you don't want to spend 3 feats on dual weapon fighting then consider using a great sword. If you do this however you won't have nearly as predictable criticals (about 35%), BUT you will have more damage - both when you get a critical and when you don't. However for the great sword you don't have as many attacks so the % then works out to be even less than 35% overall.

So then which characters should spend the seven levels? Frankly any class that will engage in melee combat regularly that doesn't depend completly on sneak attacks. So that pretty much rules out pure spell casters, rogues and assasins. Every other class is fair-game. How about a Druid dual-wielding scimitars? Or a Sorceror, RDD, dual-wielding scimitars? Perhaps a more traditional approach would be a Paladin, Champion of Torm dual-wielding Rapiers? (One Note: if you do go the Sorceror route up to at least 6 levels and without armor - you will then have the opportunity to increase you critical threat range even further via the 3rd level spell Keen Edge. You can then increase your percentage further for a critical OR choose another weapon with a lesser base 19-20 and still get about 50% criticals.)

Note there is a minor problem with this class. There are 2 epic level critical hit feats; the problem is that both feats require high base Str. levels. Why is the str. requirement a problem? Well to have Whirlwind (and subsequently your Weapon Master Class) you must have a base of 13 int. and 13 dex. - this ties up your points spent on attributes to a certain extent. It becomes however particularly troublesome if your relying on other attributes beyond str. (like Charisma for a Champion of Torm that will also be a Weapon Master.) IF you want these epic feats then plan out VERY carefully how and when you will get them. One way, (though it takes a prestige class), is to have levels in a RDD. Another way of course is to simply go the fighter route and only have to spend you 13 points in (int. and Dex.) and then the rest primarily in Str. (though still spending adaquete points in Con.). The third way is to spend several epic level feats to increase you str (but this of course will mean that it will be MANY levels b4 you actually get these critical hit epic feats). ANOTHER problem is that they require Greater Cleave which means more feats spent (again suggesting a class that has additional feats like a fighter has). Oh, and b4 you dismiss the idea that your not going to get these feats look them over first. In my opinion the single best epic feat in the game is Devistating Critical, (but of course you must first obtain the sister feat which isn't nearly as appealing.)

The Shifter: This is essentially the Druids version of a Pale Master, (though not entirely). You are not gaining increases in spells to cast BUT depending on the shape you shift to you may gain spells to cast (like breath weapons). Remember however that as a Druid you'll still have the Druid Shapeshifing ability but with the exception of a level 16 Elemental Shape the Druid shapeshifting abilites really do not compare. In this instance then the Shape Shifter is more or less augmenting your spell casting and/or augmenting your melee prowess via a shape. In particular at level 10 you can turn into a Drider that is quite powerful, (around 33 AC, 150+ hitpoints, high str. and dex. with good attack with a +2 speer), melee-wise as often as you like - effectivly a substitute for any deficiency you may have with melee abilities. Even better this shape is still pretty much Humanoid so most of your extra skills and such are retained (i.e. if you were also a rouge with levels of sneak attack then you still have sneak attacks; if you had whirlwind attack then you can still make that attack (though the animation doesn't show it); if you had equipment that gave you haste then your still hasted; etc.) - but it is larger and can't get through most doorways, so you'll have to shift back to your original shape and then shift again once you've gotten through the door. With regard to equipment IF you have a like weapon equiped with special features when you shift over - you will retain that weapons abilities. For instance the Drider has a spear.. if your character has a spear in their hands before shifting that has an extra feature like Daze (that the Drider's weapon does NOT have) then the Daze feature will still be present when you assume the Drider form. Also consider your feats appropriatly to the form you'll take for melee combat. Again in the Drider example you can take Improved Critical in Spear and you'll have improved criticals as a Drider.

Additionally this is a class where you do not really need to take 10 levels to have good effectivness IF used properly. If you can deal with the 3 times per day limitation to shifting into a particular form then the best melee form to take is the Humanoid Drow Commando shape. (Spell Resistance for the Drow shape is very high at I believe 26 and AC and attributes are also strong - stronger than the Drider.) The Shifter gets this form at level 7 and the only forms you give up at level 7 are the top (3 times/day) monster forms (which have their own significant limitations - like only a few "spells"/gazes per day).

Note ALL Shapes can use the Stealth skill so place as many points as possible in both Hide and Move Silently - it is TREMENDOUSLY helpfull for most of the forms you can take. EX. at level 10 you can also shift to a Basalisk infinitly - Basalisks aren't greater fighters but they can use their petrification gaze and the best way is to sneak up on an opponent and then use the gaze on them. EX.2 Manticores also can be shifted into infinintly, perhaps their best feature is their ranged venom attack which is typically better to have from a stealth position. Note however that Basalisks and Manticores are not huminoid at all and so don't retain many of the nice extras that your charater might have (like haste, or sneak attacks, etc.) The additional pay-off here with this class is access to the epic feats (character level 21): Construct Form, Dragon Form, Outsider Form, and Undead Form. Unfortunetly however most of these forms require ludicriously high base wisdom levels.

So when should you take this class? Probably after maxing your levels as a Druid (level 20). The Shifter class is powerfull maxed, but not as powerfull as a seasoned Druid is. A 3rd class could consist of a Rogue, Assasin, or a Shadow Dancer. (The reason other classes are not mentione is that they only offer melee ability that is already found in the Shifted forms, or offer spell casting that is redundant.) Offensivly consider either a rogue for the extra sneak attack damage they can provide that works EXTREMELY well with several of the shift forms available. Or if your more defensive in nature choose a Shadow Dancer. In either case you will want to save-up your skill points for these classes and take one level of the class before starting your Shifter class so that you can cash in your skill points on the Hide, Move Silently, and Tumble skills (to boost them to VERY high levels).

(note: the Grand Druid/Shapshifter/Rogue is perhaps one of the most powerfull of all the combinations.)

[ 12-16-2003, 01:54 AM: Message edited by: ScottG ]

[Poison Dart Frog]

WOW! Fantastic post Scott G. Thanks for the information. If I was a moderator, I would definitely sticky this. Still have much to read, but I wanted to say a quick thanks.

[Memnoch]

That's a pretty awesome post, Scott, and very useful. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Harkoliar]

whoa that clarified alot of things.. thanks alot! ScotG