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Old 01-14-2001, 12:24 AM   #31
Armisael
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Green elves? High elves, right? Look, all I'm saying is that incorporating the 3rd ed rules, there's no way there'd be human cities everywhere, human gods, armour standardized for humans, etc. because they simply wouldn't have progressed that far unless they could compete with the other races somehow, which without any sort of advantage, they couldn't. Maybe it'd work in the real world where there's no other particularly intelligent species to compete with, but the AD&D world isn't exactly quiet and peaceful, is it? I mean imagine this; humans evolve and make a little settlement, and then a horde of level sixty orcs comes along and razes it. Since orcs have no limitations anymore and are superior in both strength and constitution, humans never would have even gotten the chance to develop an advantage.
 
Old 01-14-2001, 03:47 AM   #32
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Ok, granted, but you have to remember that while PC classes can raise as high a level as they want to, most of the populace will stay fairly low. Why? Because they have regular day to day events to take place. Yes, elves do consider themselves above the other races. But they do not war with them just because they think they are better. Elves are in tune with nature and they live for a long period of time. Their very first 100 years is basically learning this concept. This is one of the reasons that they view the world the way they do. You are basically looking at a race based on statistics rather than culture. Dwarves are a more competitive race, but their love for the underground knows no bounds. They have not found such a conflict with humans because the humans do not have the same wanderlust that dwarves do for their caves. As for the Half-Orc, they are shunned by both humans and Orcs.

If you are saying that Orcs are abundant and they will wipe out a human settlement, yes this is true. But Orcs have a great deal of enemies to contend with as well. They do not get along well with the Dwarves, Gnomes, Half-Elves, Elves, Humans, or most any other PC type race. They will be hunted because of this. Also, Orcs are normally respectful of a greater power (cowards), they will fall back to a better position rather than give up their lives stupidly. They tend to befriend hill giants or stay in mountainous regions. They do not like the open air as they feel it is a weakness.

You shouldn't view things as, "Why should I play a human?", but moreso, "What race will I better identify with?" I mean, in order to roleplay this character correctly, you will need to know their strengths and weaknesses. You will have to decide if what you get with that will work for you. Everyone has a strength as well as a weakness. By allowing humans to multi-class, the game creators have removed this weakness for the demi-humans strength (no level limits). If you don't like playing a human, then don't. Nobody is forcing you to do so.

For most beginning characters though, playing a human is a more straitforward event. They don't have to try and remember all of the racial limitations and benefits. As they get into the game mechanics, then they can move up to a demi-human. That's why I was saying it's all dependent on how you play. If you number crunch and you are talking about a CRPG, then humans are weaker than their counterpoints. But if you mean in the wide world of PnP role-playing, they are equal to any other of the races.
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Old 01-14-2001, 04:33 AM   #33
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(sigh)
Alright, I've pissed a few people off so far, but I'm determined to clarify this. I'm not talking about numbers. I'm not saying elves or dwarves or gnomes would declare war on humans just because they're inferior to them. I'm talking about logic, and I'm saying that in a competitive world where there are already several other races - stronger, better adapted races with natural resistances to the chaotic effects of magic, the ability to see in the dark, greater strength, higher intelligence and a better natural agility, how and why would another, far weaker race come into being, then proceed to erect cities and nations all over the place? How do their heroes even get recognised? I'm sitting here reading my old 2nd ed manual, and here's a quote:

"If the only special advantage humans get is given to all the races, who will want to play a human? Humans would be the weakest race in your world. If none of the player characters are human, it is probably safe to assume that no non-player characters of any importance are human either. The world would have no human kingdoms, or human kings, emperors, or powerful wizards. It would be run by elves, dwarves and gnomes."

The book then goes on to explain that this would result in an entirely different world, a world completely alien to humans, and since in reality we are all human (or so I'd hope), creating the simplest of campaigns would be nigh impossible for all but the most imaginative of dungeon masters. If you want to talk about culture, think about this: paladinhood is supposed to be a uniquely human perspective. Would a dwarf see the point of a holy crusade? Would a gnome?

"If humans are weak, will the other races treat them with contempt? With pity? Will humans be enslaved?"
"In addition to free class choice, humans can attain any level in any class. Once again, this is a human special ability. In the AD&D game, humans are more motivated by ambition and the desire for power than the demihuman races are. Thus, humans advance further and more quickly."
Makes perfect sense to me; don't know why TSR decided to withdraw it.

That's it. If you stll think I'm being opinionated or number-driven, fine, but just remember that the reason I don't like 3rd ed rules is because I've actually read the 2nd ed rulebook.
 
Old 01-14-2001, 08:51 AM   #34
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Yes, I've read the 2nd edition handbook as well. And, for the most part, I totally agree with you. It's just that the designers took in a lot of ideas from the people who buy the product and they were saying standardize this and standardize that. Dual class came up a lot, cause it wasn't very flexible. Wouldn't it make more sense to be able to progress in a class as you desired, rather than to be forced to stop at a certain level, and then not be able to advance forevermore in that class?

It still all boils down to what you want out of a campaign. Do you hold that everything has to be iron clad and a contract from the handbooks? I don't think I've ever met anyone that follows everything to a t? So who's to say that the elves or dwarves didn't start the human faction. Maybe they view them as descendants. Perhaps with a little amount of pity, or even better as a child race that is showing great promise. Do you stop this race from progressing or do you help nurture it and help it to find it's place in the world. Perhaps in this scenario, the elves helped protect their humans from the evil dwarves who would enslave them?

And as for the third edition, they still do get some other benefits for being human too. I don't have all the rules down totally yet, but it seems that they are given more abilities than the demi-humans. If I remember correctly, this is because they have dedicated their lives to gain these added points in a shorter amount of time. You can't just base one aspect of the game as the game. You have to look at it in its entirety. If you do this, then you are right. Why play 3rd edition at all. If you are satisfied with the 2nd edition rules, then by all means, stay with them. If you want a combined version, say using that dual class option and/or level limits on your characters with the rest of the 3rd edition rules, then follow that as well. Everything still boils down to your imagination and what would make your game world fun to play. I personally like to make the best of whatever situation I'm placed in, including PnP adventures.
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Old 01-14-2001, 08:59 AM   #35
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You'd obviously have to have some imagination. I would've liked it if dual-class, instead of removing your primary class' skills and bonuses, let you keep them while building up your second profession. I'd still like to think humans were so successful in the world because they made their own way with the advantages they were given. Still, if anyone was going to help the human race adapt it probably would've been the gnomes, since elves are too reclusive and dwarves are generally a pretty angry race. I'd like to have been adopted by Jan Jansen, for instance. But it doesn't matter a terrible lot, I rarely play P&P anymore and I can't afford another set of books.
 
Old 01-14-2001, 09:03 AM   #36
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Well, if they had kept things the same, why would you want to be a demi-human? I mean, you are right, they would be stuck at some level. When you reached the cap, you would feel cheated. All of a sudden the lights go down and the curtain goes down. They had to find some way to bring interest back to D&D. They were dying. Less and less people were playing. TSR was sold to WOTC and now WOTC is being sold to someone else. If they didn't get interest back into the product, it would have gone the way of the dinosaur. That's why the CRPG are so important right now. It's supposed to be bringing some of the flock back. We won't know how things end up for awhile, but there it is.
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Old 01-14-2001, 09:17 AM   #37
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Heh, I remember level five was an enormous accomplishment for a character when I used to play. By the time you were level fifteen or so, you were practically a god. After all, it's not every day you face a 20,000 EP abyssal tanar'ri, and ogre mages were still considered relatively strong opponents. The thing was, not many people carried characters over from game to game unless it was from a lower- to a higher-level campaign, meaning the racial level limitations just didn't matter a terrible lot. Then it became apparent people like the idea of using the one character throughout many different campaigns, and I guess that's when the level limitation complaints started to come up frequently.
 
Old 01-14-2001, 09:25 AM   #38
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Armisael, I've read the 2nd edition as well and I have to say:
I AGREE WITH YOU 100%. Totally logical in my mind. Look at the reasons humans are dominant on earth. No other species has what we have. Some may be stronger (bears, crocs, lions) some may use more of their brain (cetacean's sonar), some can hear more frquencies (dogs) plenty are faster (cheetahs) and plenty proliferate more (rats, rabbits). But what we have they don't have.

Races that are older, faster, stronger, more intelligent,(basically superior to humankind) would definitely - following the precendented principle of survival of the fittest - become dominant over humankind.
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Old 01-14-2001, 09:32 AM   #39
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Phew, thank you. I thought maybe my brain had stopped functioning normally for a while there. : )
 
Old 01-14-2001, 09:38 AM   #40
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Don't have my 3rd Ed. Rulebook here, but I remember some of the advantages.

1. Humans get a free Skill every level.
2. Humans consider any class their prefered class.

A lot of 3rd. Edition is skill driven, Humans get to be a lot more skillful than other races.

Multi/Dual classing in 3rd. Edition requires a prefered class as the 1st class. If the first class is not a prefered class, there is an experience penalty to the secondary classes if they get beyond 2 levels of the primary class.

Whatever class a human chooses first, it is considered a prefered class and they will not get xp penalties for advancing further in their secondary classes (to an extent, which I can't remember since I don't have my books with me).

Humans are simply more populous, more diverse, and because of their short lifespan, a lot more ambitious. That's what makes them the 'basic' race.
 
 


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