USA Part 2 (continued)

[Chewbacca]

Blaming forest fires on logging regulations is like blaming earthquakes on hole digging. Forest fires are natural, so are politicians that push agenda's to increase thier party's warchest.

People who live in forest fire danger zones choose to do so, and therefore choose the risk of losing it all to the quite natural occurence of forest fires.

Ironicly the fires near the California Sequoia groves may actually help those trees proliferate, same with other trees.

The real problem is irresponsible people who ignore fire bans.

Or its a goverment conspiracy...after all two of those big fires were started by govt. employees.

[skywalker]

Originally posted by Attalus: Actually, most paper, etc., is made from quick-growing pine trees that are grown as a cash crop like corn. The older hardwoods are used in other areas. And, after the horrific fires in Colorado this summer, does anybody really doubt that present forestry practices are adequate?

I agree..I don't think the Forestry Department has been doing a good enough job due to underfunding and some BIG mistakes where an Agent and a part time Firefighter started a few fires.

1) Forest fires are Natures Way of thinning the forests.
2) The problem with these fires is that the people want to build their houses further away from the cities. This places homes too close to wooded areas that have been historically susceptible to the fires. Sort of like building in flood plains or near fault lines.
3) It is possible to keep large fires controllable through forest management, such as clearing overgrown brush and removing the smaller diameter trees that make the forests a higher risk for fires. The problem is that logging and lumber companies have little to no use for brush and thin trees.

It remains to be seen if the government pays attention to both the Lumber Industries intentions and the Evironmentalists concerns. There is a balance that can be met, it just takes communication and negotiation. It also helps if no one starts fires!

Mark

Originally posted by Chewbacca: What about wolves, mnt lions, racoon ,possums, or any forest dweller that is diplaced due to heavy logging? Older trees are prized by loggers, better wood and more of it! Older trees are prized by wildlife, better homes and more of it! Its the balance of nature in general for the forest that is threatened by de-regulated logging. Our most beautiful and rich forests are old-growth. And as for biomass not being cheaper...do some homework. If its not cheaper it because its not being used. The best biomass raw material (hemp) is illegal to grow and damn expensive to import. Its more expensive because politicians want to protect their cash cows, among them is the timber industry. If biomass had the political clout and infrastructure that lumber has, it not only would be cheaper, but far far far far far far far more renewable.

Well as for hemp, the primary users of Hemp as rope and rigging was the maritime types, Hemp being a natural fiber was subject to rot and decay from little crawlie things that et it for dinner, Nylon and other non-organic fibers have become more economical.

Last timeI heard, Wolves, Mountain Lions, Opossums and racoons didn't depend on old growth trees. having grown up on a farm that had the forested parts of the land strip mined and then replanted I can attest to the fact that not only did the wild life thrive in the younger growths, they did too well. We had to start traping fox, skunk, opossums and groundhogs or hunt them down and find ways to keep their populations in check (note there are not many wolves, or mountain lions in the woods of PA.) The Deer population shot thru the roof as they loooooved the tender young new growth.

I realize you are a major proponent of "Hemp" and I will agree that it has its uses, but the prohibition of the material is not caused a huge conspiracy of textile people keeping it out of the free market....I think it is strictly the anti-drug peeps that is the problem there.

I will also point out that I find younger stands of timber every bit as beautiful as huge growths of old timber....the old trees are more impressive but no more virtuous to me.

Originally posted by Moni: quote: Originally posted by MagiK: Umm no not callous at all, I think it is realistic. First off I would point out that a Human Being is not comparable to a Spotted owl.

I would have believed you were truly being realistic but then I read the following sentence LOL.
No, I do understand about the adaptation of species to their environments but when we expect them to adapt to ours, IMO that is overstepping boundaries.[/QUOTE]Uhhh I don't understand what you ment here. I was seriously realistic in my statement...not sure what part of what I said served to disuade you of that fact.

Originally posted by Kaltia: Like fossils fuels, animal species are irreplaceable. it's that attitude, that if they can't survive in cities or whatever then they're weak, that does the most damage.

Hi Again Kaltia, I don't know you well enough to tell for sure if you are deliberatley trying to misrepresent what I said or if you are just ignoring what I said.

I never stated a species has to survive in the city instead of the forest, I said that a species that cannot live outside a specific 200 square mile of land is doomed to extinction no matter what. I dont want anyone to go out and shoot the darn things, but if they can only live in one place, in one tree out of a whole forest, then they are doomed to die out the first big fire, flood, earthquake or volcanic erruption that happens. Spotted Owls are particularly unadapative and no matter what we do are most likely on the "soon to be extinct list", just like that groud dwelling parrot breed that was on the discovery channel last night. Adaptability is how nature ensures a species is strong....no we dont have to go out killing them for sport but we should not be overly grieved at the passing of an unsuccessful species either.

Hope that helps you understand my position.

Originally posted by Chewbacca: Blaming forest fires on logging regulations is like blaming earthquakes on hole digging. Forest fires are natural, so are politicians that push agenda's to increase thier party's warchest. I think you are being particularly specious on this point. As of yet I have seen NO evidence that Bush or any other politician is going to receive kickbacks for the logging proposal. Your equivalency is not accurate at all. All though there is a small (and it is really small) body of evidence that the weight of construction in NYC may be adding to fault stress and causing small earthquakes periodicly People who live in forest fire danger zones choose to do so, and therefore choose the risk of losing it all to the quite natural occurence of forest fires. So if we follow that logic we should just say screw all those people who are presently drowning in europe and in the mid west of the USA due to flooding since they "choose" to live on flood plains? One of the things that sets man above animal is that we can and do take steps to adapt the land to us and not vice versa Ironicly the fires near the California Sequoia groves may actually help those trees proliferate, same with other trees. Again 100% accurate here. Some conifers especially in the Pacific northwest need fires to spread their seed. The real problem is irresponsible people who ignore fire bans. Or its a goverment conspiracy...after all two of those big fires were started by govt. employees.

And the dance goes on All good discussion though [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Kaltia]

Originally posted by MagiK: [QBHi Again Kaltia, I don't know you well enough to tell for sure if you are deliberatley trying to misrepresent what I said or if you are just ignoring what I said. [/QB]

Possibly both

Originally posted by skywalker: quote: Originally posted by Attalus: Actually, most paper, etc., is made from quick-growing pine trees that are grown as a cash crop like corn. The older hardwoods are used in other areas. And, after the horrific fires in Colorado this summer, does anybody really doubt that present forestry practices are adequate?

I agree..I don't think the Forestry Department has been doing a good enough job due to underfunding and some BIG mistakes where an Agent and a part time Firefighter started a few fires.

1) Forest fires are Natures Way of thinning the forests.
2) The problem with these fires is that the people want to build their houses further away from the cities. This places homes too close to wooded areas that have been historically susceptible to the fires. Sort of like building in flood plains or near fault lines.
3) It is possible to keep large fires controllable through forest management, such as clearing overgrown brush and removing the smaller diameter trees that make the forests a higher risk for fires. The problem is that logging and lumber companies have little to no use for brush and thin trees.

It remains to be seen if the government pays attention to both the Lumber Industries intentions and the Evironmentalists concerns. There is a balance that can be met, it just takes communication and negotiation. It also helps if no one starts fires!

Mark[/QUOTE]Mark, Mark, Mark [img]smile.gif[/img] we actually agee on something [img]smile.gif[/img] hehehe Yes, I will be suspicious if the feds allow logging on federal land without having imposed and required responsible land management, altho the logging companies I know of in PA. are pretty good at replanting and not clear cutting. THe few loggers I talked to when they cleared our land when I was a teen had all kinds of plans drawn up before hand on what would get replanted where and when which stands would be cut. They really are not the slash and burn types of the 1800's anymore....at least not that I have seen.

Originally posted by Kaltia: quote: Originally posted by MagiK: [QBHi Again Kaltia, I don't know you well enough to tell for sure if you are deliberatley trying to misrepresent what I said or if you are just ignoring what I said.

Possibly both [/QB][/QUOTE]LOL fair enough! [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Kaltia]

Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by Kaltia: quote: Originally posted by MagiK: [QBHi Again Kaltia, I don't know you well enough to tell for sure if you are deliberatley trying to misrepresent what I said or if you are just ignoring what I said.

Possibly both [/QUOTE]LOL fair enough! [img]smile.gif[/img] [/QB][/QUOTE]Heh, it's what I do best after annoying Dundee Slaytern and beating Cal up after all [img]tongue.gif[/img]