Wolves as Endangered Species

[Nachtrafe]

Originally posted by Neb: Nacht, it has been CLEARLY proven that wolves will ONLY attack humans if starving, rabid or continuously bothered by them. Personally I think that your friends had stumbled upon a starving pack AND went deep into their territory. And is that so different from humans? When insane, constantly annoyed or really, really desperate humans will do close to anything as well.

Hi Neb. I know that I'm *WAY* behind on the debate, but I really feel the need to correct a couple of HUGE misconceptions and a LOT of arrogance on your part.

1) Where, pray tell, has it been "CLEARLY proven that wolves will ONLY attack humans if starving, rabid or continuously bothered by them."? Was there scientific research on the subject? Double blind testing? Studies with control groups? Focus panels? A Discovery Channel special? I'd be really interested to see such research and read the findings of said researchers.

2) Seeing as how you know *nothing* about my friends or where they were, other than a short post by me, then how can you possibly assume to make such an arrogant statement as the one above. In FACT, my friends were hiking/climbing in an area well used for hiking. Yes, it *was* in rural Idaho, but there was usually quite a bit of weekend traffic in the general area. When Fish and Game tested the dead wolf they found absolutely no trace of Rabies, or any other disease, so that was out. And no, they weren't 'starving'. The dead wolf was quite full fleshed(I was shown pictures, so I know this from first hand experience).

3) As for your statement about 'their territory'...a few facts: Wolves are NO LONGER NATIVE TO IDAHO! They have no 'Territory' as such. The only reason that there are *ANY* wolves in the entire Pacific Northwest is because a group of Animal Wacko's got together, screamed and bitched and whined at the Federal government and insisted that they(the Fed Gov) re-introduce them. Unfortunately, as usually happens when the Govt involves itself in any issue relating to the environment, they f*cked it up. The Forest Service imported half a dozen HUGE packs of wolves from EASTERN CANADA into the WESTERN US. So, not only did they traumatize the animals by trapping and drugging them, then trasnporting them clear across the continent.....THEY BROUGHT THE WRONG BLOODY SPECIES!! There have never been Canadian Timber Wolves in Idaho...EVER! Until now anyway. Because of people like you, who think that wolves are "intelligent and beautiful" and should be 'saved', these predators...who have not one jot of fear of humans BTW...are now in an environment totally foreign to them. They have become so brazen on their attacks on both humans, and their livestock, that the Forest Service is having to organize hunts to capture and destroy the creatures before they become an even bigger threat.

4) As to your last point...well, yes, some humans will do exactly that. However, we possess a reasoning mind, something no other being on this planet has. And that mind allows us to make a conscious decision NOT to be a vicious predator. That's what seperates us from these animals.

[Memnoch]

If you guys want to debate, put your boxing gloves on by all means - just remember to shake hands at the end of the match, eh?



[ 10-21-2002, 10:11 AM: Message edited by: Memnoch ]

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by Scholarcs:

Start naming some areas in which we are doing a good job.

Oh that is totally easy, I can use my home state of Pennsylvania. PA. Is a big coal mining state, and a Big Steele mill state. When I was growing up, you could always tell when you were getting near a town, there would be a brownish gray haze in the air from all the coal smoke. There were many sites where strip mining had left ugly tell tale scars on the landscape and pittsburgh itself had every building covered soot and grime. If you drive through the state now, you can't see evidence of any of this any more. The place is much more beautiful than when I was a kid. PA. is not the lone example either. West Virginia is another and other states are doing the same. The problem with you younger types and some of the older types, you forget or don't know about the way things used to be. You don't remember unlandscaped strip mines, or smog, or un-replanted clear cut forests, or any of the thousand other things that have been corrected. Once they are gone, they are forgotten so that a new generation of eco-worriers can have something to stress over. How about a little credit where credit is due eh?

The only one I can think of is the fact that in the summer of 01/02 the hole in the ozone layer did not increase in size for the first time in 50 years.

According to the science journals I follow the Ozone hole is not only not getting bigger it is markedly smaller and will be gone in less than 50 years. So what do you want? Everything right away no doubt, have some patience. [img]smile.gif[/img]
[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

MagicK's right on the money with a lot of this. In LA 30 years ago you could not see the mountains for the air pollution - now you can. There have been *serious* improvements since the early 70s. But like all things important, vigilance is required. Why did we fix the ozone hole in a (relatively) fast time frame? Because the leaders of the nations got together and put together the Montreal Protocol at *light speed* - unlike what was seen before or since. The nations signed it, agreed to it, and (as mandated by the protocol) outlawed CFCs and HCFCs in their home nations (for the most part). Note that America pushed hard on it - why? Well, we had the technology - and making it "required" sure was good for business. Europe was slower, as it was still relying heavily on CFCs in aerosol cans.

And what was the reward? Well, within about 80 years, the problem that was caused in less than 40 will be fixed. But, that's what you get from complete, decisive, hard-line action. Climate change on the other hand - well we've been over a decade on that one and we still are arguing over whether or not there's a problem.

You get dirty air notices in your town? I know New Yorkers (NYC up to Syracuse) do. New pollutant of concern is called PM2.5 - that's small particulates of 2.5 micron and smaller size. Are these bad? Well, yes, they can embed in and infect the individual alveoli in the lungs, leading to respiratory disease and cancer. What puts this crap out? Well, natural gas power plants for one. And, we thought those were newer cleaner technology. This pollutant is bad, you just can't see it. Vigilance vigilance.

My point is we are generally not safe enough in our efforts to "play it safe" regarding the environment. Blame it on market forces - the almighty dollar. Same thing that causes us to not be safe enough on other fronts - like drug approval (I know, that's another topic).

[Thoran]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Don't forget, while you're sitting around waiting for somebody to create and communicate this other set of rules (which I would argue you have a duty to help create if you're bright enough to realized the need), the different needs the human species-being has: beauty, art, love, as well as food, sex, and toilet. These are variables in the utilitarian equation of how we manage the planet we've got. [/QB]

As with most things, individual input is necessary to effect change, but not much will happen until societies as a whole change... and a single person has relatively little impact there, this is where organizations can get things done. (talking about the average person... not rich/famous who might be able to effect change through their more visible position)

As for myself, sure I do a lot of sitting around (like right now), but I'm also in the woods all the time. My father is a forester and instilled in us a great sense of responsibility for the little slice of the planet that we "own" (silly concept if you ask me). My wife is an animal trainer (she'll be performing at the Superdogs show in Ottowa in a couple weeks... shameless plug), and we are a foster home for several breeds of dog. (we take in abused/neglected animals, Bull Terriers primarily, until we can find a permanent home for them) We try to live by the rules that we believe, and we believe that animals have as much right to the earth as we do. We believe conservation means active management of resources... not blind abuse or exclusion. Sure there should be some "forever wild" places out there where human impact is minimized, but most of this planet should be managed to optimize its utilization by all (animals and humans). The image of the evil logger clear cutting every tree in site is just not realistic... not to mention that controlled clear cutting is VERY good for an ecosystem. I read a recent article that claimed the Eastern US has more forest acreage today than when Columbus landed... while this seems a bit hard to verify, there certainly is steadily increasing forest coverage in the NE as small farms are pushed out of business on plots that are not candidates for agribusiness.

[Timber Loftis]

Didn't mean to imply your were lazy, Thoran.

As for the tree cover percentage: it's cyclical. VT is over 80% forested today. At the turn of the century, it was 80% deforested. Yes, some logging is good for a forest, unless you're going to allow wildfires, which serve the same purpose: clearing out underbrush.

The early colonists practically cut down every tree for 10 miles inland from where they landed, it is not hard at all to imagine there being more timber acerage now than when they denuded most of the Mid-Atlantic and NE regions. Hell 12,000 years ago there wasnt even a rain forest in south america, now look at it (no really check out some of the online sattelite photo's) Its huge as ever. Nature has quite a remarkable ability to recover from even harsh treatment. All we have to do is use a bit of thought and care.

[Thoran]

and regarding the idea that a Wolf/Dog hybrid would be a good protector for your kids... even if this were the case it could be dangerous for your children. A dog will have no qualms about "correcting" behavior that it sees as improper in a subordinate pack mate. If that subordinate pack mate is a child... that child will be "corrected" by your dog, this can be pretty rough and could seriously injure a human child. Throw wolf in the mix and you have a very volatile animal, IMO such cross breeding is very irresponsible and done in large part by people who like the power rush of owning a dangerous animal. This is the same gang that buy Pit Bulls, Bull Terriers, and other fighting breeds and train them to attack/fight. They should face murder charges when one of their creations goes berserk and kills someone.

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: You get dirty air notices in your town? I know New Yorkers (NYC up to Syracuse) do. New pollutant of concern is called PM2.5 - that's small particulates of 2.5 micron and smaller size. Are these bad? Well, yes, they can embed in and infect the individual alveoli in the lungs, leading to respiratory disease and cancer. What puts this crap out? Well, natural gas power plants for one. And, we thought those were newer cleaner technology. This pollutant is bad, you just can't see it. Vigilance vigilance. My point is we are generally not safe enough in our efforts to "play it safe" regarding the environment. Blame it on market forces - the almighty dollar. Same thing that causes us to not be safe enough on other fronts - like drug approval (I know, that's another topic). I believe that in North Carolina they really buckled down and tightend up emission laws on power plants, cars, out houses and anything else that emmits gas and mandated the replanting of native species of trees and shrubs. Yet the officials were stymied when year after year their air quality got worse and worse, untill someone realized it was the plants native to the region that were "polluting the air" It seems that the "Smokey Mountains" are called that because of emmissions from the vegetation and NOT from cars...see they were named before cars existed..and power plants. yeah we have to work on things but we don't have to go nuts about it.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: ROFLMAO [img]graemlins/laugh2.gif[/img] - what you mean is "Groundhogs dig holes in backyards that make 'em look bad and that makes owners mad, and it also worries owners that they won't be following their subdivision mowing and yard maintenance rules, so they try to kill the little buggers." Break a leg. HAHAHAHAHa Sorry, let me laugh just a little more.

Just for the record, Timber, I know someone personally who did "break a leg" in a gopher hole in his backyard. He is the FedEx driver that delivered to the hospital where I used to work. He was also a very big man (around 280lbs). When his leg went down into the gopher hole, physics took over. His momentum carried him forward and his large frame put a tremendous amount of pressure on his leg, breaking it in two like a twig. He was out of work for 3 months while he recovered.

I also stepped in a gopher hole myself one time. My g/f and I had gone to a local lake to watch the annual 4th of July fireworks. It was a little chilly being right next to the lake, so I went back to the car to get her coat. I never even SAW the gopher hole until I plunged down into it. Fortunately, I wasn't hurt (just mildly embarassed), but there were two reasons I didn't break my leg. One - I wasn't very large at the time (weighed about 160), and two - my leg went COMPLETELY into the gopher hole, all the way up to my hip. Had the hole not been so deep, I could easily have broken my leg when I pitched forward.

It may not happen ALL the time, but gopher holes DO present a very real hazard that is much more serious than the "homeowner being mad about how it makes his yard look".

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Oh, and the thing about horses and cows with broken legs being put to sleep - part of the problem wouldn't you say? Besides, they still get sold, at least for "feed" value (which sometimes goes in human-edible products of course).

I've often wondered about why horses and cows have to be "put down" if they break a leg myself. I can only assume that there is simply no good way to save them. While I'm sure it's very expensive, I don't think the cost is the reason. Even professional thoroughbreds have to be "put down" if they break their legs. And if ANYBODY would have the money AND incentive to save their horse, it's professional breeders. Yet I clearly remember a race several years ago between two of the top horses at that time (sorry, can't remember their names, just that one was a filly which was unusual). The race was really little more than a publicity hype between these two horses only. Halfway around the track, the filly suddenly pulled up and began limping noticeably. She had broken her leg and the stress had shattered the bone into small fragments. There was simply no way to save the leg....or her. I've always thought it was very sad that she couldn't be saved, but I'm sure her owner would have done anything in his power to save her - for breeding purposes if nothing else.

Originally posted by Thoran: and regarding the idea that a Wolf/Dog hybrid would be a good protector for your kids... even if this were the case it could be dangerous for your children. A dog will have no qualms about "correcting" behavior that it sees as improper in a subordinate pack mate. If that subordinate pack mate is a child... that child will be "corrected" by your dog, this can be pretty rough and could seriously injure a human child. Throw wolf in the mix and you have a very volatile animal, IMO such cross breeding is very irresponsible and done in large part by people who like the power rush of owning a dangerous animal. This is the same gang that buy Pit Bulls, Bull Terriers, and other fighting breeds and train them to attack/fight. They should face murder charges when one of their creations goes berserk and kills someone.

Or it could mean that the kid might grow up with better manners and discipline than the Human parents might have instilled, since the dog/wolf isn't inhibited by pop-psych child rearing techniques [img]smile.gif[/img]

Just a thought.