Death,Kill, Maim, Destroy...

I agree that the way we play the game reflects the way we are to an extent. If we kill the good NPC's it doesnt mean that we are gonna go killing good things in real life. But it may reflect the fact that we would take an easy short cut to get further on in life, but I'm not sure if this is inherently bad..??. How many of us will take the easy option if we know we are not going to get punnished for it, especially if it leads to a quicker learning curve as does getting the big EP in the game. Its animal nature to take the easyest option/route, the responsibility of the game makers to make laws to prevent people. If there was no laws to prevent murder in real life would there be more murders, of course there would.

Does all this seem a bit heavy, well maybe its because I've just killed the dragon (only because he wouldn't talk to me though..lol). Up to that point I've been good even king frey is still there and half hes gold, but after killing the dragon with no noticable side/bad effects then what is to stop me carrrying on the carnage. Only my good will and gaming spirit could do that, but seeing as I use walkthroughs and this forum to answer the things I can not work out (which seems a personal cheat to my/our selfs anyways) I am already cheating to an extent by doing this.

It would seem that are own morals are the basis to play the game, if you play the game the evil way and then say at the end that was easy I beat that then maybe you should worry, if you know what you have done and realise its just a game and that you are going back to the real world with laws then all is well...ok now im rambling time to go....

[skywalker]

I just thought I'd say that this is exactly what it appears to be - a big soapbox. Feel free to wax eloquent if you like. This is why I started the thread.

Everyone: There is some great stuff posted here, keep it up!


Mark

I am not much of a stat builder, I am DEFINITELY a role player. Was torn in MM because by chosing an alignment with dark or light your magic became limited. My spirit generally enjoys playing the hero (perhaps with a bit of trickery in there now and again). There just isn't a point to killing good NPC's for me (I even let Scabban live for a while because I thought he would redeem himself with a cure; then, I read the online help walkthru - WOW, didn't know that was there - and it said to off him). My characters are an extension of my creativity, which is not destructively driven or acquisition based, I want to build things that makes the heart sing, or if sadness is inspired, it is for the purpose of empathy and learning. I can understand venting frustration but since there are no pillows in the game, there will be not pillow fights. (Pillow of venting +3).

There is a line in Jurassic Park . . . Ian Malcolm says something about it not being a matter of whether you COULD do it, but whether you SHOULD . . . implying certain consequences which this game lacks for the most part. Since I am enjoying a story, the consequences take away from my enjoyment. I know not everyone enjoys playing the way I do, nor do they have to. LOL! It is a game . . . knock yourself out and share your viewpoints here so we can all be the richer for it.

Elara - On your last sentence . . . I am guilty! I did it!

since u're on the topic of gameplay issues killing the illusion, i just have to add: u know what similiarly bothered me about the game? the fact that u couldnt get rethpian out of the crypt, even after recovering the key. he just stayed on in that lil room of his, down in the crypt, dreaming of and eating them rats.

i dream of the game where the designers can work out every lil' kink of this sort, and make the game world ever so much more responsive to your actions. sigh. u're right; there were a lotta missed opportunities in the game.

[Sazerac]

First of all, this is a fascinating and most worthwhile thread! Excellent topic, Mark.

I agree totally with the game not doing its job. I think it was build in but never activated, as I have found in the Wav files of the game certain files that indicated that the character had violated the "Oath of the Mavin" and was consumed by it. I think the culprit lies more with Activision than with HPI, since publishing companies are more interested in getting products that "run" out the door than getting products that "run well" out the door-- *sigh*

Grim, one of the most morally challenging dilemmas my party faced in the game was in Collasium when a mermaid blocked the door and wouldn't move...my characters had already gotten into an area and would drown soon without air...hating to do so, they finally resorted to killing her (she was being hostile to them squealing "I don't trust you! I don't trust you!") when they had done nothing to violate her trust to begin with. I felt really bad about that because it was the first non-attacking opponent they had to kill, but it was either her or they drowned...the survival dilemma. Again, poor design...or good design that wasn't fully worked out.

The problem, of course, exists that there are absolutely no penalities anywhere on doing "bad" things or even "incorrect" things. In Wizardry 7, depending on your actions, you could either befriend or alienate an entire faction. For example, killing Raskallion in the Stout Mines: since he's of the Hidden Circle, you should then become enemies of the Hidden Circle and be leagued with the Black Hand; but never does any opportunity come up that shows that your action made any difference whatsoever on the outcome.

I agree on the two type of gamers: stat-mongerers versus RPG'ers. The thing is, there are many other ways to get XP other than by slaying NPC's...just set your respawn rate to "often" and play the game at "hard" and wander around the countryside or in dungeons. This would also be in accordance with your "oath"...you are policing the land and removing hostile creatures from the path of innocent travelers, blah blah...definitely more "noble" than killing an innocent NPC. The game design makes it easy to go up levels. Once you get past a certain level (Level 14 I think) the leveling process becomes linear rather than geometric; you only have to get 256000 or so points to increase a level, no matter how high in levels your character is. After Brimloch Roon, you can get massive levels just by wandering around the islands, diving and killing sharks and crabs, etc.. After a while, all the killing isn't worth while and you're just interested in the storyline.

The trouble is, of course, that no computer can ever take the role of a true RPG. We get a close facsimile at best, but there's no way to account for every possible action a character may take. Most CRPG's are at best an pre-set adventure game with room to create and develop characters. Don't get me wrong; I like them, but I like pen and paper RPG's better. The inter-human element, you just can't account for with a computer.

Have fun!

Sazerac

[skywalker]

Heado'Cabbage: Worse yet, he says he's out of rats, but just up the stairs there are tons of them.

Mark

looks like I had to get my characters to quit killing those glowbugs....

[skywalker]

One of my biggest problems (?) is that with all my interests, they all share a common thread. And that is that I tend to like talking or reading about these interests as much as and at times more than the hobby itself. Sazerac, I too find this discussion fascinating, no matter what a poster's viewpoint is. I can agree with either side of the issue.

And I do believe that all the missed opportunities in this game mostly point to Activision's desire to get the game out in time to compete with BGII.

Mark

I'd post my full opinion here but it's so far down the thread that noone'll probably read it.In a past thread I mentioned the fact that there is no such thing as a Computer RPg becasue RPG's are Role Playing Games (this means assuming a persona, computers as far as we know, do not assume any form of consciousness or personality, they work in some form of mathematical binary code). This means that all so called CRPG's are actually Strategy Games pretending to be RPG's because they mainly boil down to multiple choice conversations (written very unimaginatively) and the designers spending a little more time on the graphics and background concepts. As far as I'm concerned CRPG's are for when my local gaming group aren't around and I need to pass some time gazing at some almost breath taking graphics (bar the ones that I imagine) and joining in with (all together now) "Hello my friend, stay a while and listen." for the goodness knows how many'th time. In fact, at a certain anti clmatic moment in a well known (and justifiably superb) computer game I found myself declaiming to the computer "Hello my enemy, stay a while and die!" Before getting well and truly stuck in.And you know what, I've almost got the accent right too (not the impersonators accents but the authentic one), it just takes an hour or two to switch voices (via a sort of James Stewart miscaleny).

BTW the only creature that I have both spoken to and killed was Scabban, other's might have spoken to me ("You're outnumbered"- "No we're not, you just can't see us 'cause the big hulking Barbarians in the way, actually mate you are outnumbered")- maybe the Highland rogues talk to themselves, insulting themselves, reminding themselves of the futility of it all in order to spur them on to acts of suicide.

One note about ?Rethpian? the crypt keeper: I believe the purpose of this whole rat thing was to encourage some adventurer, who, thinking herself clever, would doggedly spend the better part of 30 minutes trying to get some of the rodents into a ?bucket? so she could present them to the crypt keeper in exchange for a juicy tidbit of information. Many rats were fried that day, until at last she had to admit she was not nearly as clever as she had hoped.