What do you think of GATS?

[Diogenes Of Pumpkintown]

Originally posted by Moridin: Um Silver Cheetah...if America, as you pointed out, was a colony of European expansion, why did we not fall prey to all those nasty things you mentioned, but instead grew into what we are today? Secondly, how can you call us a colony in one sentence and then turn around and lump us together with Europe, as exploiters of southern hemisphere countries...last time I checked America really had no colonies...outside of a few islands in the caribbean and pacific?!? Why is it hard for you to lay the blame on Europe without including America? From your post, isn't it truly European countries that should bear the brunt of the responsibility to developing countries....we (america) were just following your lead afterall

The European efforts at colonization in the area known as the US today followed a different path than was typical in other parts of the world.

Instead of the usual pattern of the European population remaining a minority governing/exploiting the native peoples, in the US the native peoples were for the most part wiped out and replaced by the Europeans.

After the English colonies successfully rebelled against England, winning their political independence and setting up their own government, the new country of the US continued to expand in this same way, overrunning a vast area and almost entirely displacing the native peoples.

So, it is a bit absurd to say that the US didn't participate much in colonizing. Much of the history of the US represents the most effective, ruthless, and total example at colonization in the history of the world.



[This message has been edited by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown (edited 09-09-2001).]

[Diogenes Of Pumpkintown]

Originally posted by Silver Cheetah: What I am saying though, is a country which is as rich as America (ditto rich European countries) have some sort of responsibility towards the developing world. Rich countries have been screwing poor countries since Christopher Columbus - and continue to do so. Giving aid? Yes, I should bloody well think so! You did ok out of the resources, the slave trade et al, as did we all! If you're a Christian, then you might recognise this quotation from the bible 'As a man soweth, so shall he reap.' And that applies to nations too! Rich nations have been scooping the cream for long enough. Our lifestyles have been financed, to a large degree, by our exploitation of poorer countries. To then turn round and start critising those countries for their inefficiency within our model is just plain ignorant. (It's like slapping a kid around all its life, and then being surprised when it turns into a wife beater. ) So stop moaning about poor countries… and stop with the self congratulation on the aid front. Jesus, given the historical context, I'd say it was the least we can do.

Silver Cheetah, well said as usual.

Unfortunately, your message is news to a lot of people, who have been brought up to believe that countries like America became rich in isolation, and entirely from their own internal virtues.

The historical reality is much less flattering -- instead of just virtue, much of the reason rests on vice -- the ruthless exploitation of other peoples, even to the point of genocide.

[Diogenes Of Pumpkintown]

Originally posted by John D Harris: Silver Cheetah, We are not blameless, neither are we 100% responsible. I have never bought into the "Manifest Destiny" line of my country during the 19th and early 20th centuries. My country is in the posittion it is because of BLIND LUCK and coasts on two Oceans. The Bible also says "The time is coming when no longer shall the father eat sour grapes and the son's teeth be set on edge" Blame me for what I've done, or for that my country has done since I been old enough to paricipate in the process of governing this country. Not for what now dead and buried citizens of this country did in the past. If countries are to blamed for the actions of long dead citizens of the past. Would not the long dead citizens of the colonized lands also bear some blame (granted a smaller share) for not investing R&D into military advancements? For what ever reason, not making a moral judgement, they decided to invest their R&D into agriculture, the arts, social, or any number of things that they decided was important to them. something that they had the "RIGHT" to do. (Example only) The Romans did not invest their military R&D into the invetion of the sturup, the Huns did and it alowed the Huns to shoot arrows from horse back. The Romans bare part of the blame for not being able to protect their Empire. This world is mean and tuff it will rip your face off and preform "Nasty Bodily Functions" in the hole then sew your face back on so you can taste it.It's not pretty ,It's not fair, and It's not right but it is the way it is, for now anyways and definitly in the past! Everyone must bare responsibility for their own life. After all it is their life! Now can we, the rich nations, do better? YES. Can the poor nations do better? YES. It is both, rich and poor's responiblity, not ONE OR THE OTHERS. I'll take 50% responsibilty, I could even be persuaded to take 75% responsibility. I'm willing to give the majority of the help, but the poorer nations will have to give some too. I'm not saying they don't, but neither will I acccept that we aren't giving either. I'm amazed that the rest of the world hasn't figured out how to handle the USA! It's easy just ask, we're the nicest, kindest bunch of "Blow Hards" that never walked the face of the earth. P.T. Barum, famous in this country for saying, "there's a sucker born every minute", underestimated the birth rate. But, if you piss & moun at us you bet we're gonna dig-in, you'd (that's the world "you" not a personal you) do the same thing! It's HUMAN NATURE.

John D., to ascribe the American "success" as BLIND LUCK is to ignore totally the darker aspects of US history, which involved conscious, premeditated choices made willingly.

Silver Cheetah is not trying to blame you for the actions of your ancestors. What she is saying is that whining about the poor countries of the world and bragging about the pathetic amount of aid the US gives to them is absurd in light of the fact that the richness of the country you live in is partly the result of past exploitation of the poorer parts of the world.

I sincerly hope that if more Americans (and Europeans) were conscious of the real history of their countries, and how they came to be rich today, they would do a good deal more to help out the poor of the world. If not, it would merely show that we remain as shamefully and ruthlessly selfish as our ancestors ever were.

Regarding your points about military R&D -- surely you aren't suggesting that the victims are to blame. That would be a novel defense in a court of law. Let's see -- a defense to rape is that the woman should have armed herself better, and so the whole thing is her fault. Hmmmmm. . . .

So all the other countries have to do regarding the US is ask nicely, eh? Yea, right. I suppose it was that traditional American kindness that was behind such things as slavery and genocide.

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by John D Harris: Until you become a citizen of this country and participate in the process, and accept the consequences, of that participation don't piss & moun about what this country does.

John

Ok, here is part two of my reply to your post.

Re 'third world' nations' contributions to medical science, inventions and so on…

AAAARRRRGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Did you not do any history at school? The third world continents were home to sophisticated civilisations long before Europe came along with things that went bang bang. Medicine, astronomy and mathmatics were highly advanced amongst the Arab nations, India, and the Chinese. The Aboriginals had a highly developed culture, although it was not recognised as such by the invaders. African cultural and social life was rich and varied. These people and empires had their virtues and their vices, their strengths and weaknesses, just like anybody else. Go read your history books. Europe knocked the shit out of these nations because her military and naval strength was far stronger.

Yes, she says wearily, I know what your response to that is going to be. It's their own fault, they should have developed against such eventualities (that would be like planet earth spending resources developing bigger and bigger weapons against a threat from alien races, - races that we don't know for sure even exist.) Yup, they are obviously to blame. Totally their fault that Europe was greedy and aggressive………….

Your point re the USA and its economic links to the rest of the world. Yes, one of my arguments against globalisation. One goes down, or starts swaying, and the rest follow like ninepins. Disaster to America means disaster for the rest of us. You seem very self congratulatory about that, why is it so great? Seems pretty stupid to me. I just love being at the mercy of the markets - notoriously capricious. Traders have the herd instinct - one leaves a ship that looks like it might have a hole in, others follow like the proverbial rats, things escalate…….. pretty soon the whole lot of us are shitting ourselves as we plop into the murky water, trying to remember how to swim against the tide. .

I remember the day here when the traders went into a feeding frenzy on national TV. 'Kill sterling!! they shouted, high on testosterone and too much coke (the white stuff, not the black… )They all went completely power crazy, (boys with toys, sigh….) . It opened my eyes, I can tell you. Money manipulators all over the world can completely screw up millions of lives at the touch of a few buttons. And they do. Ooh, I love this dependency thing, not. Why the hell can't we grow, manufacture, buy and sell local, - all the things we can? I don't have a problem with importing and exporting, within reason and where practicable. But this all-out drive towards globalisation is leading to mass dependency, (when local industries die, it's hard to start them up again) uses valuable energy like crazy, not to mention it is going to SCREW our local markets, in fact it's doing it already. Screws us, screws the poorer developing countries (. Multinationals are happy though, so that's all right then!!!!!!!)

In my last post, I mentioned developing countries adopting the western model, for a variety of reasons. Just wait til China joins the WTO, you're going to face some SERIOUS competition there, mister! They've already hit the ground running…... They can make stuff cheaper than anywhere - all those people, working in crap conditions, being paid peanuts, sacked if they're sick, - oh yes, they are really going to be able to compete with rich industrial nations once they've got properly organised, and once liberalisation has really taken hold. Anything you can do, they can do cheaper. China never got colonised, of course, except for Hong Kong, and Macau… GIVES THEM A MAJOR ADVANTAGE OVER ALL OTHER DEVELOPING COUNTRIES. How you gonna compete with China, over one billion people who believe in the collective, rather than rugged individualism (ahem….), have a STRONG work ethic, where the state completely controls industry, where the state has long term plans………. etc, where a lot of people want to see China as a major world power and will work to that end. Depends how fast they adapt to trading and interacting in the west, I guess. I reckon they might beat you at your own game, given not very much time at all. They're protectionist, too, so you should be able to relate. (Tee hee… See below**…)

WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN TO YOUR WORKERS (AND OURS IN EUROPE) WHEN THE CHINESE TRADE JUGGERNAUT REALLY GETS GOING? Sure your multinationals can move all their production to the third world where labour is cheap - so what do the workers do? Sit and twiddle their thumbs whilst picking up their unemployment cheques (funded how? No workers, no taxes, no social security.) I really would like a reply to this question. And when loads of us are out of work, and wages fall dramatically, as they will, what are we all going to use for money to buy stuff with?

**(To expand on my protectionist comment above - I've been looking at GATT, and commitments made by developed countries to liberalise. Not doing it very fast, are we? Not as fast as we said we would. And yet both America and Europe maintain that developing countries should liberalise as fast as possible. Developing countries are being asked to get a move on, to bear the pain with an eye to ultimate benefits, whilst the rich industrial nations are asking for more time to re-adjust. Ho ho. Do what we say, not what we do. )

Same with Kyoto. America's just pissed because the developing countries like India and China get to come in on phase 2, rather than phase 1. Hey, we (US & Europe etc) made most of the mess, getting rich. So start the clear up process! Rich industrial nations have reaped the benefit, so take the initial brunt of paying the price (it's not such a very high price after all. All it means is becoming more energy efficient. Surely that will save money in the long run?)

This brings me to your point re being isolationist. As I've already pointed out, I'm not talking about world trade here, - don't you guys ever think about anything else? I'm talking about the future of the planet. American multinationals, like multinationals generally, are quite happy to use up precious resources with no thought for tomorrow, our children, and children's children, but not happy at all about a treaty which might affect their ability to do that. In America, multinationals have lobbied government like crazy not to participate. Why are multinationals so influential in the running the planet? Sod OFF! I want independent government. (I don't believe in companies financing elections, either. I'd have election money provided by the state, same to all parties, and leave it at that. All citizens have a vote. People who own or work for a large company get to vote at the ballot box as individuals, same as everybody else.)

Kyoto, in its original form, asked for a 5.2% cut in emissions from participating countries in total. (Not enough, but a start.) America was asked to cut emissions by 7%. (Not a lot to ask, considering that with only 4% of the world's population, America accounts for approx 25% of greenhouse gas emissions.) Following Bush's election, America said no way, and walked out, well aware that it was almost certain that by her doing so, the treaty would be rendered useless, if indeed it was ratified at all. (Well, in the end it was. In a watered down form and no thanks to Bush.)

If a country wants to be ranked and respected as a world leader, then take part in global processes! Walking away from treaties like Kyoto, (not to mention ABM), which are not perfect, admittedly, but the best we have right now, disqualifies America from any kind of leadership position. Your politicians are walking away from responsibilitity! I repeat, they have picked up their toys and gone home. Like spoilt kids. You'll only play the game if it's played according to your rules.

And why is that? because your (un)esteemed leader is corporate led, that's why. His election campaign got serious funding from big multinationals who don't want Kyoto. Without them, sure he wouldn't have made it - he only just scraped in as it was. (The unspeakable in support of the unelectable - if you object to the word unspeakable, go take a look at the greenpeace site, and read the 'dirty tricks' report there.) Mr Bush is obligated towards those companies who help put him where he is. Why do big corporates have this kind of power? Globalisation is increasing corporate power and pull, and will continue to do so. The role of governments in regulating big companies to protect the environment, quality of life and human rights is diminishing.

Wonder if that might help explain why people are losing confidence in government, and turning against politics altogether? In the UK, our recent election turn out was the lowest ever, at around 59%. Your 2000 election turnout was the highest for some time, at 51%.

Lastly, YES, as a world citizen, I can 'piss and moan' about what your country does! As I said earlier, this is MY planet too, and I have a perfect right to state my views about actions taken by America, a very powerful industrial nation which is currently taking actions which I consider to be irresponsible in the extreme, and which are likely, if pursued, to endanger the future of life on this planet (including my life, which is important to me). You want to be world leader? - well then act like a world leader, that is to say responsibly .




------------------

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown: After the English colonies successfully rebelled against England, winning their political independence and setting up their own government, the new country of the US continued to expand in this same way, overrunning a vast area and almost entirely displacing the native peoples. So, it is a bit absurd to say that the US didn't participate much in colonizing. Much of the history of the US represents the most effective, ruthless, and total example at colonization in the history of the world. [This message has been edited by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown (edited 09-09-2001).]

Thanks Diogenes, - I didn't put that very well when I wrote it! You have extracted the essence of what I mean with beautiful simplicity. I am very encouraged by your participation. For the last few posts, I have felt like I'm banging my head against a very hard brick wall. I think when you get people with completely different world views having a debate, it can be hard to get the point across. I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels frustrated! (But I KNOW I'm right.........



------------------

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown: John D., to ascribe the American "success" as BLIND LUCK is to ignore totally the darker aspects of US history, which involved conscious, premeditated choices made willingly.

Diogenes, you rock!!

Your responses are beautiful, clear and succinct (and I agree with 'em!!!). Here on a sunny(ish) UK afternoon, me and my best friend Janey are cheering
as we read. Please do post more!!

[anomie]

Possibly interesting facts regarding the World Bank. Seems like the former chief economist at the World Bank, Joseph Stiglitz, has stepped up against the policies of his former employer.



IMF’s Four steps to Damnation

(Apologize for not being much of a debater, but want to help as possible.)
Peace,

------------------

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by Moridin: John D...can't remember where I posted that I would look at efficiency numbers (or was I just dreaming that ) but I did look around and found some interesting numbers and then did some calculations on Excel and this is what I found...they are very interesting and I am glad that I looked them up

Hey there Moridin, hope you're having a lovely weekend! Where did you get the figures from, just out of interest? Are they all from the same source? or different sources?




------------------

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by anomie: Possibly interesting facts regarding the World Bank. Seems like the former chief economist at the World Bank, Joseph Stiglitz, has stepped up against the policies of his former employer. IMF’s Four steps to Damnation (Apologize for not being much of a debater, but want to help as possible.) Peace,

Anomie, welcome to this thread! Thanks for the information contributed - and please do feel free to step in and chat! If we've already covered a point, that's ok, - it's always good to get another view. So, do chat!

------------------

[Moridin]

Originally posted by Silver Cheetah: Hey there Moridin, hope you're having a lovely weekend! Where did you get the figures from, just out of interest? Are they all from the same source? or different sources?

Hiya Silver Cheetah, hope your visit to the orchard country is going well

I pulled the numbers from a variety of sources (and no, none of them were from a corporate or government funded agency...well except the population data, but I figured why would anyone over or under estimate their population)...and each set of numbers was checked at a second source for accuracy. If you look anywhere on the web I gaurentee you will find the same exact numbers that I used to do my calculations!

------------------


Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig
I've got to admit it's getting better, it's getting better all the time
Bossman of Better Funny Stuff.....of the Laughing Hyenas!