What do you think of GATS?

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by Fljotsdale: Sorry Silver Cheetah. Its just the news of all that damnation stupidity in Ireland again. It makes me sour. Angry. Tearful. Frustrated. I HATE bloody religion and goverment. Should be banned. And yeah, I KNOW I am being unreasonable and stupid!

Yes, I know how you feel. I take it you mean the little girls running the gauntlet? We thought it was all over bar the decommissioning, and here we are, seems like right back where we started. Travelling in London got quite peaceful and relaxing there for a while, no worries about bombs (not IRA ones, at any rate...) All change.......

Just wanted to ask, Ms. Iceland, why do you keep apologising for being 'unreasonable and stupid'? Nobody else does! Why is it stupid to react from a gut level and speak your feelings - it's not like you're hitting out, more crying out.... Logic isn't always where its at - it would be a poor world if emotion never got a look in. Just so long as you don't get so upset about violence that you start machine gunning down the miscreants....

And thanks for telling me about the double posting! Much appreciated.


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[Silver Cheetah]

RESPONSE TO MORIDIN'S WEAPONS POST - DID SOMETHING WEIRD TO THIS WHEN I EDITED IT...... LOST QUOTE......

Just a quickie on this one - I don't know what the answer is. But I'm sure it isn't son of star wars. I'm going to sound like a starry eyed idealist here, but in the end, love is the only answer. Taking weapons away from people that feel the need to use weapons will just lead, as Moridin says, to the development of yet more weapons, to meet the felt need to attack and defend. When we stop glorifying violence in our society, when we start bringing up our kids without beating hell out of them, when we learn to respect the other person's point of view even when it's different from our own (this forum is great for learning that one! It's a hard lesson, for me at any rate. (I come from a family where we communicated the hard way.) then, maybe, we might be in a position where we don't feel the need to use weapons. Coming from the heart, rather than the ego does take some doing. I wish they'd teach it in school, that way we'd have a chance of learning it!)At present, society exists in a constant state of paranioa, (especially in America at the present moment, it seems. One thing you can say about George W. without much fear of contradiction, lordy me that dude is paranoid!)

Empathy is key to moving away from a weapons oriented society. Unfortunately, people who have been seriously hurt one way or another, don't tend to have a lot of it (unless they've conciously worked on re-developing it, that is). When you get used to cutting yourself off, numbing your feelings to feel less pain, then you lose your ability to relate to the pain of others. And that makes it easy to hurt them. I think most of us know how that works! And that's one of the main problems in the world, I think, that we don't feel others' pain.

It's also a defense mechanism. There is so MUCH pain, (and with media global coverage we get to see a hell of a lot of it) people just can't take it, and so they shut it out. It gets to be a habit, people get resigned, and feel there's nothing they can do, so why get emotionally or practically involved?

Most people confine empathy to their nearest and dearest, others don't feel it much at all. If we could develop this ability, to empathise, I think we would, ultimately, not need weapons. Unfortunately, we're not at that stage yet. It's one of those things I'd like to see taught in school, along with a few other subjects not currently on the curriculum!

Weapons. Hmmmmmm. Do the words 'escalation' and 'proliferation' mean anything to anyone?

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[This message has been edited by Silver Cheetah (edited 09-05-2001).]

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by Moridin: Natural Capitalism You mentioned this before Silver Cheetah, and I am going to touch on it briefly, but will post more extensively later.

Your understanding is pretty much the same as mine. And yes, it’s difficult to translate these values into hard currency. We do need some way of factoring in environmental costs though..... as is starting to become obvious....
Moridin, do you ever read the Guardian? It’s a UK newspaper, which you might find of interest. It is essentially left wing in general tone and content, however, not in any kind of ranting socialist kind of way. At present, it is publishing loads of really interesting environment related stuff. The site is www.guardian.co.uk. A writer called Polly Toynbee is worth reading.... plus others......

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by Moridin: We don’t totally part company. I don’t feel that companies need to take responsibility for what they sell, but rather how they sell it. ...Corporations need to start finding ways to reduce waste! They have to start using more recycled material, reduce packaging size and weight, package in reusable containers. Yes the three R’s that we seem to aim at consumers but let corporations ignore. It should be in the best interest of companies to reduce waste, it is savings to them. If they can cut costs, in the form of waste reduction, that is more profit for them, unless they are generous enough to pass those savings on to the consumer

Hmm. Does that mean take responsibility for advertising? I’ve no objection to advertising, as long as it’s truthful. Some companies have a very liberal interpretation of ‘truth’. How they can imply that a breakfast ‘cereal’ full of sugar and additives is healthy and a great way for your child to start the day, I really don’t know. There’s absolutely scads of examples of the most cynical advertising. Cigarettes, for one. Ok, things are changing on that front, but it’s taken a hell of a time. (Not sure what cigarette advertising is legal in America now....). But it’s taken us this long to start limiting companies selling what is essentially poison, and which doesn’t have to meet any FDA or other agency standards. Anything that is taken into the body and ingested should be regulated in the same way as food, no? The fact that we’ve let them get away with so much on the ad and regs front is a clear indication that government puts profit ahead of the well being of citizens. (Also makes a complete nonsense of their so called war on drugs. What absolute crap.)
Packaging – packaging is a sales tool, and that’s why companies don’t want to get rid of it. How are they supposed to differentiate their product from 100s of others which are similar or identical? Underneath the packaging, it’s the same squashy goo, generally speaking. There was a great movement in Holland a while ago, where people used to get together and go shopping in the supermarket. When they’d all done, they’d rip all the packaging off the products they’d bought, and drop it all on the floor for the supermarket to clean up. It only really works if there’s a lot of you.
On the rare occasions I do go into a supermarket, I refuse to use plastic bags to put my fruit in. I stick it all on the checkout, loose, and then put it into my rucksack that way. Tee hee. I hate packaging, it’s one of my ‘things’. Like every time I go into a shop and buy just ONE thing, they automatically try to give me a plastic carrier bag without even asking if I want one. No! I don’t! I have my own bag, thanks very much. If companies would start a policy of just asking people........ Lots of people where I live do say no to plastic bags. We seem to be getting more aware on that front. In ‘the old days’ everyone used to have a string bag. What’s so hard about that? Of course, the reason companies don’t like the ‘own bag’ thing is it takes up time. Much quicker to slam everything in a plastic bag for the customer, rather than start messing about packing a closed bag. Also, your bag doesn’t have THEIR brand name on it.

By the way, on the subject of shipping, when you say shipping is obvious in it’s waste and use of natural resources. Goes hand in hand with globalisation! No global trade without shipping!

On the subject of corporations reducing waste: don’t you think that is a matter for government to regulate? For the simple reason that most companies won’t – otherwise they’d be doing it already. Sure, the consumer (god I hate that word. Reduces us to the status of tubes with a hole at each end – hey..... many a true word........) can put pressure on companies, but most of them just cannot be arsed, because they don’t think it’s important. It would take SERIOUS consumer pressure to make a big company start cutting down on its packaging.

Education plays a part here, which is where government comes in. (Oh, or does it, in America? Sorry, I have no idea what role government plays in your education system. I assume it does have one??)

PS. Moridin, I have to ask – what are the Laughing Hyenas? (ref. your sig.)




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[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by Moridin: No it is not economists talking through their respective posteriors. A lot of these nations that are given funding by the IMF and Worldbank ARE corrupt and incompetent! Money that is meant for new schools, roads, hospitals, food, etc…is instead used to buy arms for the military, or is used by government officials to build themselves houses, buy foreign products like cars/tvs/airplanes. Rarely does any of this money get used for what it is intended for.

Yes, I accept that some nations are. (I do not accept that all developing nations are.) In relation to the former, what about the responsibility of the lender? The WB and IMF must be pretty crap if they can’t work out what the status is of the nation they’re lending to. If the ruler has a bad record on human rights and money management, what on earth are they doing lending to that nation? (What is the point if the money is going to end up funding corrupt fat cats?)

In the UK, when a person asks the bank to lend them some dosh, it’s the responsiblity of the bank to obtain certain information about that person, including his/her financial record, including ability to repay. In the case of developing nations, the same applies, I would have thought, only in far greater measure, as it is not the tyrant(s) who will end up paying, it’s the people they rule, in blood, sweat and tears.

Goes back to what I was saying about a world government. Practical or not, there has to be some way that intelligent human beings can come up with to prevent these massive human rights abuses by complete w*nkers. The current situation, where the West intervenes (generally if there is something they want at stake) isn’t really a solution – stinks rather too much of colonialism for my nostrils, - which is another reason why I like the idea of a world body with all nations represented, which can take action on behalf of the collective. However impractical that may be.

Re your quotes – yes of course, point taken. I don’t want to get into a situation here where I’m arguing on behalf of the underdog as a matter of course, and endowing them with all the virtues under the sun, which is far from being the case. However, during my university degree, I spent a lot of time on post colonial studies, and it is really worth looking at the roots of some of the abuses that are currently taking place. I am not blaming all the ills of the developing world on colonisation, however, colonisation by the West does lie at the root of much of what is happening in the developing world. This is a VERY complex argument, and one that I am not about to get into here at this present moment, although I do hope we’ll be able to discuss it at a later date!



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[Diogenes Of Pumpkintown]

Originally posted by Silver Cheetah: Thank you, Diogenes. A slight digression - is Pumpkintown a real place in the US, or is that part of your name witty social comment? (Scuse ignorance please!)

Both

It is a real place, actually -- a tiny crossroads community 5 miles from my house.

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Silver Cheetah: Your point about international treaties – ok, this is where I get mad. Before I get going, here are some statistics for you: (from a UN document) ‘Globally, the 20% of the world's people in the highest-income countries (i.e. America, European countries, Japan) account for 86% of total private consumption expenditures - the poorest 20% a minuscule 1.3%. More specifically, the richest fifth: Consume 45% of all meat and fish, the poorest fifth 5%. Consume 58% of total energy, the poorest fifth less than 4%. Have 74% of all telephone lines, the poorest fifth 1.5%. Consume 84% of all paper, the poorest fifth 1.1%. Own 87% of the world's vehicle fleet, the poorest fifth less than 1%. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.................... lash tail............. No more Ms. nice Cheetah........ [This message has been edited by Silver Cheetah (edited 09-05-2001).]

Watch that tail you know what they say about a long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs
Nice figures but only ONE side is presented!
What is the food out-put of those countries? Which ones export more than they consume? Should not those countries be praised and thanked for their efficiency? What is the production out-put of those countries? What is the emissions out-put percentage compared to the energy consumption percentage? Is it less? Telephone lines, paper, and vehicles well DUH they are after all by definition wealthy therefore it stands to reason they would have MORE STUFF. But what does that have to do with the price of tea in China? (american expression)
But since you seemed to think it was important answer me this. What is the percent of inventions have they produced? What percent of improvements have they come up with? What is the contributions to medical science? What is the percent of products they produce? If they produce more does it not stand to reason that they would have more? Since you are using the UN which countries give the most aid to other counties? What is the percentage?
Now it's my turn to get pissed (american for angry) I read one of your posts about the USA acting like they were taking their toys and going home. You haven't seen taking toy and going home! When you check out which county gives the most aid (humanitarian), guess what its US! Sure sound like we're taking our toys and going home. The USA is the #1 consumer in the world, we buy everybodies products. If we where to take our toys and go home Quit buying all the world's products the rest of the worlds economies would would purt'n-near (american red-neck for DAMN-NEAR[apologizes to ladies and children for using cuss word]) colapse. Check it out, from history, not through the filtered happy horse manuer of someone's agenda. What happened to the rest of the world's economies in the late 80's? The USA had a slight dip in the stock market (Oct '87). What did the London market do? What did the Japanese markets do? What did everybody else's markets do? We recovered in less then a quater, how long did it take the rest of your economies to recover? In the early 90's we had another slow down, not even by definition a recession, what happened to the rest of the world's economies? We are not perfect, but we are not the big bad guy either! If we wanted to be isolationlist (SP?) who in the world could stop us? (no need to answer that one we've played that game before on the board and I won) The fact that we are in a world economy PROVES that we are not taking our toys and going home. As for pulling out of treaties, we have a saying over here "You have to know when to hold'em, you have to know when to fold'em, you have to know when to walk away, and when to run". Until you become a citizen of this country and participate in the process, and accept the consequences, of that participation don't piss & moun about what this country does. Where have I pissed & mouned about another country? So I am not asking anyone to do anything that I'm NOT DOING or are unwilling to do myself! How's that for treating others as I would like to be treated?
Rant is over!

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"the memories of a man in his old age,
are deeds of a man in his prime"

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by John D Harris: Watch that tail you know what they say about a long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs

Yo John D - the answer to this is going to be LONG - unlike your rather snap reply To do with cause and effect. Watch this space!

For now....... bump..........



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[Fljotsdale]

What's new, ■■■■■-cat? (ahem!) Silver Cheetah, I mean! Wondered where you had got to today!

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[Moridin]

oooooh this should be interesting....waiting with anticipation

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Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig
I've got to admit it's getting better, it's getting better all the time
Bossman of Better Funny Stuff.....of the Laughing Hyenas!