What is evil? - Page 3

Barry the Sprout · 01-30-2002, 12:12 PM

MagiK, you point to some religions and say that they have led to evil actions. But surely from the point of view of the people committing the acts what they were doing was extremely holy. I don't agree with them, but they had other ideas. For example by torturing someone until they repent they beleived they were saving their soul. This was, to them, an act of great good. So is it still evil in general or simply evil in your eyes?

Also, you say that you know evil when you see it... I don't think I would. Give me some examples to go on here, because I don't know if logically they are evil. I think you are getting confused between a central concept of evil (which I am looking for and failing to find) and an action you consider evil. I think we have to make a big disctinction myself.

Ronn_Bman · 01-30-2002, 12:48 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Barry the Sprout:
...why does the concept (evil) feature so strongly in todays society...

Why? Evil is a word (like all others) with a definition, and when it fits a situation it's appropriate to use it.

evil: 1 a : morally reprehensible : SINFUL, WICKED b : arising from actual or imputed bad character or conduct

It's most common definitions are admittedly broad, which leaves it open to interpretation, but no more so than most other words.

For example: intelligence: (1) : the ability to learn or understand or to deal with new or trying situations : REASON; also : the skilled use of reason (2) : the ability to apply knowledge to manipulate one's environment or to think abstractly as measured by objective criteria (as tests)

That's a reasonable definition. It sums up the concept, but is that all intelligence really is? Aren't there degrees of intelligence? Isn't intelligence judged differently by different people? By different cultures? Because the definition isn't absolute should we do away with the concept of intelligence?

Is an evil man really evil, or is he a man who has done evil things?

Is a good man really good, or is he a man who has done good things?

Does it really matter which part of the sentance you place the concept in? Does it really matter if the definition isn't absolute?

[ 01-30-2002: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

01-30-2002, 01:24 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Barry the Sprout:
MagiK, you point to some religions and say that they have led to evil actions. But surely from the point of view of the people committing the acts what they were doing was extremely holy. I don't agree with them, but they had other ideas. For example by torturing someone until they repent they beleived they were saving their soul. This was, to them, an act of great good. So is it still evil in general or simply evil in your eyes?

Also, you say that you know evil when you see it... I don't think I would. Give me some examples to go on here, because I don't know if logically they are evil. I think you are getting confused between a central concept of evil (which I am looking for and failing to find) and an action you consider evil. I think we have to make a big disctinction myself.

Barry it was evil in MY euyes since I am incapable of seeing through anyone elses...it owuld get all icky and bloody trying to borrow someone elses eyes... [img]smile.gif[/img] he wanted an opinion I gave it. no controversy..its my opinion and Im allowed to have it! Oh and a great quote came to mind...they thought they were doing good....well "The road to hell is paved with good intentions"

Barry the Sprout · 01-31-2002, 05:16 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Ronn_Bman:
Is an evil man really evil, or is he a man who has done evil things?

Is a good man really good, or is he a man who has done good things?

Does it really matter which part of the sentance you place the concept in? Does it really matter if the definition isn't absolute?

[ 01-30-2002: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

It matters a bit to me I must admit. I think that the term is all to often used, as I said earlier to scapegoat an individual where more people may be guilty, or other forces may be at work. I did really like your statements about good and evil men though. I think if I were to consider a concept of evil that makes rational sense it wojuld have to be that:

An evil man is a man who does evil things, judged by me.

A good man is a man who does good things, judged by me.

This of course means that a man may be good and evil, at different points of his life depending on his actions. It also means that a man may be judged good or evil differently by different people, which inherently means it is not an absolute. I think that bothers me most because if I see a person being branded as evil I am not able to stand up and say - "Only to you". That is not the way society views it, but that is probably the only logical way of defining the term. Very confusing, very worrying.

MagiK - "The Road to hell is paved with good intentions" (and Chris Rea records). There are two schools of thought on that statement, roughly. One pretty much says: "I don't care what the road is like, as long as I don't end up in hell.". I.e. It doesn;t matter what you acually do - it is the outcome of all your actions that matters. The other argument is: "I don't care where I end up, I want to walk on good intentions". I.e. it doesn't matter what the outcome of your actions is, what matters is that at each individual step you chose the good path. Whenever given the choice between two actions you chose the one that is best morally. I think todays society founds its definition of good and evil actions on the first of those two theories, but does the other one have any place in todays society? It is all very confusing...

Ronn_Bman · 01-31-2002, 08:32 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Barry the Sprout:

It matters a bit to me I must admit. I think that the term is all to often used, as I said earlier to scapegoat an individual where more people may be guilty, or other forces may be at work. I did really like your statements about good and evil men though. I think if I were to consider a concept of evil that makes rational sense it wojuld have to be that:

An evil man is a man who does evil things, judged by me.

A good man is a man who does good things, judged by me.

This of course means that a man may be good and evil, at different points of his life depending on his actions. It also means that a man may be judged good or evil differently by different people, which inherently means it is not an absolute. I think that bothers me most because if I see a person being branded as evil I am not able to stand up and say - "Only to you". That is not the way society views it, but that is probably the only logical way of defining the term. Very confusing, very worrying.

But you miss my point [img]smile.gif[/img]

It's just a word. A part of our language. An idea with varying interpretations, but one that does offers a "baseline" idea that people understand. It is a valid concept based on the definition even if the definition isn't absolute.

If I told you I have on a green shirt today, wouldn't you have a pretty good idea what I meant? There are varying shades of green, some of which may even be confused with other colors, and you couldn't know definatively how green my shirt was without actually seeing it and making a personal judgement, but you would know what I meant.

All ideas are this way. All of our interpretations of language are subjective and always have been. It really shouldn't be cause for concern

.

quote:
Originally posted by Barry the Sprout:
"The Road to hell is paved with good intentions" (and Chris Rea records). There are two schools of thought on that statement, roughly. One pretty much says: "I don't care what the road is like, as long as I don't end up in hell.". I.e. It doesn;t matter what you acually do - it is the outcome of all your actions that matters. The other argument is: "I don't care where I end up, I want to walk on good intentions". I.e. it doesn't matter what the outcome of your actions is, what matters is that at each individual step you chose the good path. Whenever given the choice between two actions you chose the one that is best morally. I think todays society founds its definition of good and evil actions on the first of those two theories, but does the other one have any place in todays society? It is all very confusing...

Intending to do good, and actually doing good are entirely seperate things. I've always took that quote to mean "planning to do good doesn't matter if you don't act on the plan."

Saying you'll give $10 to charity, and never actually giving it doesn't really help anyone. "Walking" on this type intention can't possible lead anyone in a positive direction.

[ 01-31-2002: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

01-31-2002, 08:48 AM

Hey Barry...Just a thought here, but if you ever meet an evil man, why not come back and let us know what you think? Really the odds of you actually meeting these kinds of people really depends on how outgoing and traveled you become...Personally I had no conception of just how mean,rotten, and evil a person could get untill I actually witness one man burrying a machete in the neck of another man in a bar in San Juan Puerto Rico. The guy attacked because he was mad because he lost at cards, when he struck he didnt even hit the guy who had beaten him, and when you looked into his eyes, you knew that this was an evil creature in the form of a man. I will never forget the soulless look in those eyes, the wild animal rage....oh and the thought that I might be next to die also played a role there too admittedly, fortunately My frined (a giant of a man with arms bigger than my thighs) grabbed me and our other friend by the necks and carried us out of the back door of that bar before things really went to hell [img]smile.gif[/img] Man that guy was strong. Unfortunatley that wasnt the last time I saw real honest to god evil in human form *sigh* I see it on a regular basis around here when I am forced to drive through some parts of Washington DC. Ahhh well I digress and I have been told I ramble too much so this is my allotment of rambling today!

Ronn_Bman · 02-01-2002, 06:55 PM

Barry, just a bump for you. I didn't know if you saw my response at the end of page one

Today my shirt is blue...lol [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

01-30-2002, 12:12 PM	#21
Barry the Sprout White Dragon Join Date: October 19, 2001 Location: York, UK. Age: 41 Posts: 1,815	MagiK, you point to some religions and say that they have led to evil actions. But surely from the point of view of the people committing the acts what they were doing was extremely holy. I don't agree with them, but they had other ideas. For example by torturing someone until they repent they beleived they were saving their soul. This was, to them, an act of great good. So is it still evil in general or simply evil in your eyes? Also, you say that you know evil when you see it... I don't think I would. Give me some examples to go on here, because I don't know if logically they are evil. I think you are getting confused between a central concept of evil (which I am looking for and failing to find) and an action you consider evil. I think we have to make a big disctinction myself. __________________ [img]\"http://img1.ranchoweb.com/images/sproutman/certwist.gif\" alt=\" - \" /><br /><br /><i>\"And the angels all pallid and wan,<br />Uprising, unveiling, affirm,<br />That the play is the tragedy, man,<br />And its hero the Conquerer Worm.\"</i><br /> - Edgar Allan Poe

01-30-2002, 12:48 PM	#22
Ronn_Bman Zartan Join Date: March 11, 2001 Location: North Carolina USA Age: 57 Posts: 5,177	quote: Originally posted by Barry the Sprout: ...why does the concept (evil) feature so strongly in todays society... Why? Evil is a word (like all others) with a definition, and when it fits a situation it's appropriate to use it. evil: 1 a : morally reprehensible : SINFUL, WICKED b : arising from actual or imputed bad character or conduct It's most common definitions are admittedly broad, which leaves it open to interpretation, but no more so than most other words. For example: intelligence: (1) : the ability to learn or understand or to deal with new or trying situations : REASON; also : the skilled use of reason (2) : the ability to apply knowledge to manipulate one's environment or to think abstractly as measured by objective criteria (as tests) That's a reasonable definition. It sums up the concept, but is that all intelligence really is? Aren't there degrees of intelligence? Isn't intelligence judged differently by different people? By different cultures? Because the definition isn't absolute should we do away with the concept of intelligence? Is an evil man really evil, or is he a man who has done evil things? Is a good man really good, or is he a man who has done good things? Does it really matter which part of the sentance you place the concept in? Does it really matter if the definition isn't absolute? [ 01-30-2002: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ] __________________ [img]\"http://home.carolina.rr.com/orthanc/pics/Spinning%20Hammer%20Sig%20Pic.gif\" alt=\" - \" />

01-30-2002, 01:24 PM	#23
MagiK Guest Posts: n/a	quote: Originally posted by Barry the Sprout: MagiK, you point to some religions and say that they have led to evil actions. But surely from the point of view of the people committing the acts what they were doing was extremely holy. I don't agree with them, but they had other ideas. For example by torturing someone until they repent they beleived they were saving their soul. This was, to them, an act of great good. So is it still evil in general or simply evil in your eyes? Also, you say that you know evil when you see it... I don't think I would. Give me some examples to go on here, because I don't know if logically they are evil. I think you are getting confused between a central concept of evil (which I am looking for and failing to find) and an action you consider evil. I think we have to make a big disctinction myself. Barry it was evil in MY euyes since I am incapable of seeing through anyone elses...it owuld get all icky and bloody trying to borrow someone elses eyes... [img]smile.gif[/img] he wanted an opinion I gave it. no controversy..its my opinion and Im allowed to have it! Oh and a great quote came to mind...they thought they were doing good....well "The road to hell is paved with good intentions"

01-31-2002, 05:16 AM	#24
Barry the Sprout White Dragon Join Date: October 19, 2001 Location: York, UK. Age: 41 Posts: 1,815	quote: Originally posted by Ronn_Bman: Is an evil man really evil, or is he a man who has done evil things? Is a good man really good, or is he a man who has done good things? Does it really matter which part of the sentance you place the concept in? Does it really matter if the definition isn't absolute? [ 01-30-2002: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ] It matters a bit to me I must admit. I think that the term is all to often used, as I said earlier to scapegoat an individual where more people may be guilty, or other forces may be at work. I did really like your statements about good and evil men though. I think if I were to consider a concept of evil that makes rational sense it wojuld have to be that: An evil man is a man who does evil things, judged by me. A good man is a man who does good things, judged by me. This of course means that a man may be good and evil, at different points of his life depending on his actions. It also means that a man may be judged good or evil differently by different people, which inherently means it is not an absolute. I think that bothers me most because if I see a person being branded as evil I am not able to stand up and say - "Only to you". That is not the way society views it, but that is probably the only logical way of defining the term. Very confusing, very worrying. MagiK - "The Road to hell is paved with good intentions" (and Chris Rea records). There are two schools of thought on that statement, roughly. One pretty much says: "I don't care what the road is like, as long as I don't end up in hell.". I.e. It doesn;t matter what you acually do - it is the outcome of all your actions that matters. The other argument is: "I don't care where I end up, I want to walk on good intentions". I.e. it doesn't matter what the outcome of your actions is, what matters is that at each individual step you chose the good path. Whenever given the choice between two actions you chose the one that is best morally. I think todays society founds its definition of good and evil actions on the first of those two theories, but does the other one have any place in todays society? It is all very confusing... __________________ [img]\"http://img1.ranchoweb.com/images/sproutman/certwist.gif\" alt=\" - \" /><br /><br /><i>\"And the angels all pallid and wan,<br />Uprising, unveiling, affirm,<br />That the play is the tragedy, man,<br />And its hero the Conquerer Worm.\"</i><br /> - Edgar Allan Poe

01-31-2002, 08:32 AM	#25
Ronn_Bman Zartan Join Date: March 11, 2001 Location: North Carolina USA Age: 57 Posts: 5,177	quote: Originally posted by Barry the Sprout: It matters a bit to me I must admit. I think that the term is all to often used, as I said earlier to scapegoat an individual where more people may be guilty, or other forces may be at work. I did really like your statements about good and evil men though. I think if I were to consider a concept of evil that makes rational sense it wojuld have to be that: An evil man is a man who does evil things, judged by me. A good man is a man who does good things, judged by me. This of course means that a man may be good and evil, at different points of his life depending on his actions. It also means that a man may be judged good or evil differently by different people, which inherently means it is not an absolute. I think that bothers me most because if I see a person being branded as evil I am not able to stand up and say - "Only to you". That is not the way society views it, but that is probably the only logical way of defining the term. Very confusing, very worrying. But you miss my point [img]smile.gif[/img] It's just a word. A part of our language. An idea with varying interpretations, but one that does offers a "baseline" idea that people understand. It is a valid concept based on the definition even if the definition isn't absolute. If I told you I have on a green shirt today, wouldn't you have a pretty good idea what I meant? There are varying shades of green, some of which may even be confused with other colors, and you couldn't know definatively how green my shirt was without actually seeing it and making a personal judgement, but you would know what I meant. All ideas are this way. All of our interpretations of language are subjective and always have been. It really shouldn't be cause for concern . quote: Originally posted by Barry the Sprout: "The Road to hell is paved with good intentions" (and Chris Rea records). There are two schools of thought on that statement, roughly. One pretty much says: "I don't care what the road is like, as long as I don't end up in hell.". I.e. It doesn;t matter what you acually do - it is the outcome of all your actions that matters. The other argument is: "I don't care where I end up, I want to walk on good intentions". I.e. it doesn't matter what the outcome of your actions is, what matters is that at each individual step you chose the good path. Whenever given the choice between two actions you chose the one that is best morally. I think todays society founds its definition of good and evil actions on the first of those two theories, but does the other one have any place in todays society? It is all very confusing... Intending to do good, and actually doing good are entirely seperate things. I've always took that quote to mean "planning to do good doesn't matter if you don't act on the plan." Saying you'll give $10 to charity, and never actually giving it doesn't really help anyone. "Walking" on this type intention can't possible lead anyone in a positive direction. [ 01-31-2002: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ] __________________ [img]\"http://home.carolina.rr.com/orthanc/pics/Spinning%20Hammer%20Sig%20Pic.gif\" alt=\" - \" />

01-31-2002, 08:48 AM	#26
MagiK Guest Posts: n/a	Hey Barry...Just a thought here, but if you ever meet an evil man, why not come back and let us know what you think? Really the odds of you actually meeting these kinds of people really depends on how outgoing and traveled you become...Personally I had no conception of just how mean,rotten, and evil a person could get untill I actually witness one man burrying a machete in the neck of another man in a bar in San Juan Puerto Rico. The guy attacked because he was mad because he lost at cards, when he struck he didnt even hit the guy who had beaten him, and when you looked into his eyes, you knew that this was an evil creature in the form of a man. I will never forget the soulless look in those eyes, the wild animal rage....oh and the thought that I might be next to die also played a role there too admittedly, fortunately My frined (a giant of a man with arms bigger than my thighs) grabbed me and our other friend by the necks and carried us out of the back door of that bar before things really went to hell [img]smile.gif[/img] Man that guy was strong. Unfortunatley that wasnt the last time I saw real honest to god evil in human form sigh I see it on a regular basis around here when I am forced to drive through some parts of Washington DC. Ahhh well I digress and I have been told I ramble too much so this is my allotment of rambling today!

02-01-2002, 06:55 PM	#27
Ronn_Bman Zartan Join Date: March 11, 2001 Location: North Carolina USA Age: 57 Posts: 5,177	Barry, just a bump for you. I didn't know if you saw my response at the end of page one Today my shirt is blue...lol [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] __________________ [img]\"http://home.carolina.rr.com/orthanc/pics/Spinning%20Hammer%20Sig%20Pic.gif\" alt=\" - \" />

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