Evolution/Creation 2 (aka Religion III)

[Yorick]

On the phone with him now. He doesn't know what you're talking about.

Originally posted by Yorick: You're quoting the old testament. The New replaces the old where there is conflict. Does not an ammendment to a law do the same thing? The latter replaces the former? Read your bible if you're going to attempt to quote it OUT OF CONTEXT. Context is the most important consideration when reading the bible. Obly a novice opens it up and takes a single verse in isolation. The whole work has to be considered. I would have thought someone who claims to have read what you have would be aware of this basic tenet. Secondly what Christians have committed these crimes you mention? If I call myself a pacifist and go to war does that make me a pacifist? If I claim to be a drummer but never play the instrument am I a drummer? If I claim to be an environmentalist but pollute the environment, does that make me an environmentalist? Think about it. It's simple. If the words don't match the deeds there's a problem isn't there? [/b][/QB]

You are trying to frame the debate by Saying people aren’t Christians if they don’t do what *you* think of as being Christian. The bible can be used to justify almost anything and nothing you say can change that. (It is self-contradictory; if the new replaces the old and Christianity is about tolerance and love etc, why bother to keep it in there? WHY BOTHER? Surely it’s incitement to murder?)
You then insist that what they believed in is different in some significant way, in so doing; you set up a situation whereby you can simply insist that I do not understand what you mean by "Christianity"

Originally posted by Yorick: Regarding Marixsm I've already said to you, how flimsey can a theory be if it's reliant on perfect circumstances on a global level to be implemented. It's a copout. Pie in the sky fancy. Capitalism works without perfect circumstances. Religious faith works in isolation. Marxism is pretty fragile if you ask me. Also, if it's only a theory that's never worked, how do you know it will work? Are you not working off faith? Faith that the theory will pan out? And what of human nature? Where is the allowance for that? The dissidents? Oh yes. Dissidence is not allowed is it? Your faith is based on sand. At least mine been working for 2000 years providing inner peace, joy and love for it's adherants. What does your provide? I asked you to give your testimony and you remained silent. So I'll ask again and keep asking until you do, or until it becomes clear you have nothing positive to say. What benefits has your ideology brought you? What has Marx or the authors you're reading done for you? How much love do you feel for Machiavelli and why? Why should I convert to your ideology? What benefit will it give me?[/QB]

You are attacking a Straw Man; I’m not trying to convert you
First of all I suggest that you read “Marx’s Revenge”
This book postulates that Capitalism has still got a long way to go before we reach the Stage where a True communist revolution & Rule of the proletariat may become possible.
Communism has failed so far because global conditions are not right for it, you have Simply judged by the failure of the CCCP.
First of all people will only fight when they have been alienated,
Therefore the cause of a communist revolution must be the feeling of
alienation that attaches to the worker. When complete alienation
happens people will fight for the hope of a better life. The
alienation of the individual could be defined as the relationship
between himself or herself, the fruit of their labours and the ruling
class (or state). But because the individuals identity as a worker is
muddied by the outdated social structures which oppress them.
Capitalism promotes equality of a sort, that of the worker, an
individual is nothing more than their labour. People have not
experienced true alienation due to the fact of these outdated social
structures like sexism which act to prevent them participating in the
economic market. Most people have not participated truly in the
economic system. As former structures of oppression (like sexism) die
out, more and more people will experience true alienation and
oppression as a wage slave worker. Now Capital is mobile Right? And so
it will move wherever profits are greatest therefore no socialism that
attaches itself to one region can work due to the fact that capital
needed can simply move elsewhere, this also makes capitalism
international.
Now Reforms and such that make the workers lives better worked only
because the cost is passed on to the third world countries. But with
the spreading of capitalism and the aforementioned capital to the
third world countries the capitalists will no longer be able to afford
reforms to content the workers. And even as we see today, reforms will
be put back in First world countries as well. If the continued
Development of the third world happens it will serve only to make the
alienation and exploitation equal around the world. When True
capitalism occurs all over the world the workers will have to think
internationally of Reform, but the capitalists will not want these
reforms and they will act against them creating the right
circumstances for a workers revolution and True Marxism. But until
capitalism becomes truly global and outdated social structures of
oppression (like sexism) are eliminated, all attempts at Marxism will
probably fail. Once capitalism becomes truly global and the equality
of being nothing more than your labour power happens, then shall the
right preconditions for Marxist revolution occur, when the proletariat
inevitability triumph then shall Marxism be implemented in a fair and
non-discriminatory non-genocidal way as people shall have realised
their equality together as workers and not discriminate against each
other and as it would be truly global it would work and bring True
equality for all, unlike capitalism which is based upon exploitation
and will therefore never create freedom or happiness for all people

[Yorick]

Who is this?

He doesn't know you.

[Sir Michael]

From Yorick,

And just what are you doing Michael. I left my country and worked in Singapore to help. Now I'm in America. Put your money where YOUR mouth instead of trying to poke holes in what I have or haven't done. I have done what I have done and certainly don't have to answer to a trainee teacher in Las Vegas about it.

I'm not trying to poke holes in anything, Yorick...and I certainly didn't mean to put you on the defensive like that. Once again, you miss my point, and take a defensive, upset posture. I merely meant to point out that there is always a need to help people, wherever you are, and I was curious as to what you are doing now, or have done, and to point out that "sending money" is often the easy way out for people to feel like they are doing something, when, in fact, nothing is being accomplished. And I told you what I am doing...it's not a real lot, but lately I have been spending all my time working and going to school. When I am in service as a teacher, besides helping my students, I will have more time to work in the community, as well.

Dude, for a person that preaches love, and tolerance and seeing the good things in life, you seem to have a very negative, defensive and upset attitude. Dramnek_ulk brought this up, but could it be that you are really a very insecure person? Arrogance is also a sign of insecurity. And isn't pride one of the seven deadly sins? Shouldn't you be more humble in keeping with the tenets of your faith?

Also, I never meant to imply that you had to answer to me, but I would appreciate you remembering that I am not merely a "teacher trainee." I also have a Bachelor's degree in chemistry and have been working with the US Environmental Protection Agency helping to protect the environment for the last 12 years. Not to mention that I am probably your elder, and while I am not as traveled as you, I do have a lot of life experience you will never have.

I take it you didn't need the number then.....He's a good man, a devout christian and not given to telling lies......As you've experienced, he's also a good diplomat. Tell Mike we love him and hope he, his wife and children are all well.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by The Dark: I take it you didn't need the number then.....He's a good man, a devout christian and not given to telling lies......As you've experienced, he's also a good diplomat. Tell Mike we love him and hope he, his wife and children are all well.

Who shall I say this is. He doesn't know you.

He knows me very well indeed.......for I am The Dark.

[ 04-27-2002, 05:20 PM: Message edited by: The Dark ]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by The Dark: He knows me very well indeed.......for I am The Dark.

Well no he doesn't. I'm still talking to him. Give me your name

I'll talk to him personally.

[Yorick]

Call him at home then. I called his mobile

[ 04-27-2002, 05:24 PM: Message edited by: Yorick ]