The Haitian Refugee Situation

Originally posted by Attalus: Too true, Magik, but don't forget the Cold War and the enormous appeal there was back then for any refugee from a Communist country. Remember the East Germans that made it across the Wall, and the heroes' welcomes that they got?

Yep, I do. And yes it is all too easy to forget how deadly serious the Cold War was. Also hard to remember that My kids and even some older kids will have no concept of what that was like.

[Charean]

We do have a problem with our borders. There are a few nations whose refugees come to our borders. One has to wonder why here and not somewhere else. Because it is easier to go undetected?

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by Attalus: Too true, Magik, but don't forget the Cold War and the enormous appeal there was back then for any refugee from a Communist country. Remember the East Germans that made it across the Wall, and the heroes' welcomes that they got?

Yep, I do. And yes it is all too easy to forget how deadly serious the Cold War was. Also hard to remember that My kids and even some older kids will have no concept of what that was like. [/QUOTE]Actually, it seems to me that the reason we deal with Cuba differently is Castro. During the cold war, the rise of a communist regime in North America was a slap in the face as far as the US was concerned - don't forget the Monroe Doctrine. The US set up a revolution in Cuba, and then Kennedy bailed at the last minute, leaving all the revolutionaries without promised support and with an angry homicidal despot ready to jail or kill them all (which is why all the Cubans I know will vote Republican until the day the earth stops spinning). Surprisingly enough, I think the some of the best cliffs-notes version accounts of this can be found in the movies Godfather II and Nixon.

To this day, Castro is on most every US President's pet peeve list. So, we don't allow Cubans to stay when they reach land because we like the Cubans so much as because the government hates Castro. This has gone on since the wave of immigrants swelled in the early 80s when Castro opened the prisons and tossed political prisoners, rapists and murderer, and refugees all at the port of Miami in one big dump. (See the opening minutes of the movie Scarface for actual news footage of this.)

When Castro came to power, everything was nationalized. My grandparent-in-law, for instance, owned a business and a nice home they had worked hard to build after immigrating from Spain. They even had a few servants. Castro came - they fled for their lives (anyone with money had to get out or face possible death or incarceration because Castro wanted all their property). Now they get to live out their golden years crammed in a retirement high-rise in a really bad part of Miami. *grumble grumble*

I know a lot of Cubans, and the stories I could tell... You just don't understand the impetus to get out of a bad place until you've met someone who faced 100+ miles of shark-infested waters on a TIRE to get to the states.

[ 10-31-2002, 02:52 PM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

[Iron_Ranger]

For a country thats so hatefull, evil, and arrogant, alot of people want to come here.

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Actually, it seems to me that the reason we deal with Cuba differently is Castro. During the cold war, the rise of a communist regime in North America was a slap in the face as far as the US was concerned - don't forget the Monroe Doctrine. The US set up a revolution in Cuba, and then Kennedy bailed at the last minute, leaving all the revolutionaries without promised support and with an angry homicidal despot ready to jail or kill them all (which is why all the Cubans I know will vote Republican until the day the earth stops spinning). Surprisingly enough, I think the some of the best cliffs-notes version accounts of this can be found in the movies Godfather II and Nixon. Two weeks ago I aced a Midterm that dealt extensively with the Monroe Doctrine and that period in American history. GF II had some intersting tidbits in it about Cuba, and Scarface too. I really liked Al Pacino in that. err it was Pacino right? Its been a while. To this day, Castro is on most every US President's pet peeve list. So, we don't allow Cubans to stay when they reach land because we like the Cubans so much as because the government hates Castro. This has gone on since the wave of immigrants swelled in the early 80s when Castro opened the prisons and tossed political prisoners, rapists and murderer, and refugees all at the port of Miami in one big dump. (See the opening minutes of the movie Scarface for actual news footage of this.) When Castro came to power, everything was nationalized. My grandparent-in-law, for instance, owned a business and a nice home they had worked hard to build after immigrating from Spain. They even had a few servants. Castro came - they fled for their lives (anyone with money had to get out or face possible death or incarceration because Castro wanted all their property). Now they get to live out their golden years crammed in a retirement high-rise in a really bad part of Miami. *grumble grumble* I know a lot of Cubans, and the stories I could tell... You just don't understand the impetus to get out of a bad place until you've met someone who faced 100+ miles of shark-infested waters on a TIRE to get to the states.

Yep, you can get some of the same stories from people that the state department has relocated here from Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Sudan, Syria and oh so many places where the governments are not so friendly.

Originally posted by Iron_Ranger: For a country thats so hatefull, evil, and arrogant, alot of people want to come here. You have a good point. I was hoping that maybe some people from the EU could shed some light on how they deal with the massive refugee populations that must hit them from their eastern borders. Unchecked immigration has to be a problem with any nation that has any kind of social programs to help the idigent. I think Australia is dealing with some large populations trying to get there from some asian countries.

[ 10-31-2002, 05:35 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

[Timber Loftis]

It is my understanding that some of the EU countries deal with it by letting cheap labor come across the border for the working day and return home at night. This is the Israeli/Palestine model (well, urm... these days I don't know exactly how it... works... whatever) as well.

[khazadman]

1. What are the US' obligations toward these people?
None.

2. Does the US have the right to try and keep people out?
No.

3. Should the US send them back to where they came from?
In most cases.

4. Should the US grant them some unoccupied land here in the US and financial aid to start over in this country?
Hell no!

[The Hunter of Jahanna]

1. What are the US' obligations toward these people? 2. Does the US have the right to try and keep people out? 3. Should the US send them back to where they came from? 4. Should the US grant them some unoccupied land here in the US and financial aid to start over in this country? 4. What do some of the other countries represented on the board do in these situations?

#1 our obligation is to sink their little makeshift rafts because the sharks are hungry

#2 The U.S. has every right to keep them out!! There are rules and regulations to becomeing a U.S.citizen. Just because they ruined their own countries economy , that doesnt give them the right to come ruin ours AND cut to the head of the line as far as immigration goes. Let them jump through all the hoops for citizenship, just like everyone else.

#3 Sending them back depends on how they got here.I dont think we should pay a single dime to fly them home. I do however,think we should put them back on their refugee raft and let them row home!! After all , they rowed here , they can row back.

#4 The U.S. should definately NOT grant them any unoccupied land. If they have surplus land to just hand out it should go to the U.S. taxpayers who actualy contribute something to the countrie, not to a bunch of invaders.


The other #4 If people in another countrie think that the U.s> should bend over backwards to take these people in , then I suggest they put their money where their mouth is and take in a few refugees as well.

[Ronn_Bman]

Jamsandwich,

If our obligation is to sink them, in favor of the hungry sharks, won't that make it hard to send them home on the "sunken" rafts?

I believe the sharks will notice, but be unimpressed by, the recycling effort.



Edit: I will agree with you, on the very basic level, on numbers 2 and 4.

[ 10-31-2002, 06:49 PM: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]