6000+ American Dead. Some Facts.

[DragonMage]

Originally posted by Gilidarius: Give me a break. While many Americans are giving aid to Africa it is not enough. If even half of the effort and money that has gone into this campaign against terrorism it would go a long way to solving the problems of Africa. Also if you think Africa is "tribal" you have another thing coming. You obviously have not been to Africa or you would know that not to be true. Kenya and South Africa for instance have extremly urbanized cultures which reflect the level of Westernization in these countries. Sendng AID to the starving children of Africa is a one night response and not a cure. Also I might add that I have the deepest sympathy for those affected by this tradegy. My thoughts go out to the families in despair.

Gilidarius: If you don't mind me asking...what kind of solution to the problem do you feel WILL help? (not being sarcastic, just curious if you've thought of any solutions that might work)

Edit: I agree with you on that point, Ziroc. We try all we can, but can only do so much no matter how "rich" our country might or might not be.
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Alureth...Dragon friend of Breanna, Mage and Advisor in the Court of Lady Lioness

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Hopeless Romantic *sigh*

[This message has been edited by DragonMage (edited 10-12-2001).]

[Sir Kenyth]

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. It's an old but applicable saying here. Showing someone how to do something is one thing, getting them to apply it is another. The central government and local goverments are the key I think. You will have to fix the corruption and ignorance in the leaders before you can do anything else. Let's also not forget that the country is a victem of a plague right now. AIDS is going to cause innumerable deaths, and it's a preventable disease. Right now the leaders want lots and lots of free, expensive, and ineffective drugs to treat a problem instead of treating the cause. The cure is to use condoms. Which will be much cheaper, effective, AND have the side effect of helping the overpopulation problem too. Will they consider it? Hopefully. Will it work? Maybe. Ignorance breeds a reactive reponse instead of a proactive one. An alarming number of people there don't even really know what AIDS is or how you get it, considering it's an epidemic. The fruits of opressive, self-serving governments are bitter indeed.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Gilidarius: Sept 11 ---> Approx 6000 white Americans die in WTC incident. Response = War Everyday ---> Approx 32000 black African Children die of starvation. Response = Nothing. Pathetic

What the hell is this mate? The 6000 included 52 Australians, 100 odd Indians and Pakistanis, 100+ British and assorted other nationalities.

Of the thousands of American citizens who died, I can tell you I've seen the photos relatives have put up, and there are Black, Middle eastern, Italian, White, Hispanic and Asian faces amongst the mix.

New York is an ethnically diverse city. Many many races were killed.
This attitude, aside form being based on misinformation, denies the contribution the various races have on New York society and is actually racist.
Can only whites work in the bastion of capitalist wealth? Is that what you're suggesting? Why didn't you assume that many races were affected instead of assuming the opposite?

Hmmmm?



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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Ziroc: Who says we have to take care of the entire world?

Exactly. In fact in doing so America becomes culturally imperialistic. Bin Ladens gripe is with the US bases in Saudi Arabia that were put there to protect Saudi Arabia from Iraq.

Gilidarius, on an aside, my mother grew up in Tanzania, and my uncle was born in Rwanda. I have many friends who have been to Kenya, and have mates from South Africa (black and white) Ghana and Zimbabwe.


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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[Diogenes Of Pumpkintown]

Originally posted by Yorick: Exactly. In fact in doing so America becomes culturally imperialistic. Bin Ladens gripe is with the US bases in Saudi Arabia that were put there to protect Saudi Arabia from Iraq.

Yorick, those bases were not put there for the interest of Saudi Arabia, but for the US's own interests in keeping a military presence in the Middle East.

It is false propaganda that the Saudis feared Saddam would invade them, and so invited the US in for their own protection. The reality is far different, that George Bush, Sr. pressured the Saudis into allowing the US in for reasons of its own. The propaganda of the time that this was all the Saudi's idea for their own protection was a self serving US government bit of misinformation.

And THAT is why Bin-Laden turned against the US at the time of the Gulf War.

This is the historical reality, which is well supported by the actual facts regarding the sequence of events and the known communications between the Bush adminstration and the Saudi government at the time.

Understanding what actually happened in the Gulf War is crucial to understanding one of the main reasons for much of the hatred towards the US in the middle east today. For that reason I fully intend to refresh my memory again as to the exact details by a bit of research when I get a chance (it has been a while since I studied it and I need to go over it again) and start a separate thread about this very issue. So don't ask me to back up what I am saying with references right now. I promise to try to do so in the near future though

[Sir Kenyth]

I don't know about that. The Saudis seemed OK with us there. They even gave us a medal for it.

Originally posted by Gilidarius: Sept 11 ---> Approx 6000 white Americans die in WTC incident. Response = War Everyday ---> Approx 32000 black African Children die of starvation. Response = Nothing. Pathetic

32000 x 365 = 11,680,000 per year. Pardon my skepticism, but I think you may want to look at the data again. I understand your point, and even think it is a valid one, however the exaggeration of the numbers rather undermines your credibility, in my opinion.


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Perversion is the true spice of life: Variety is just part of a healthy diet.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown: Yorick, those bases were not put there for the interest of Saudi Arabia, but for the US's own interests in keeping a military presence in the Middle East. It is false propaganda that the Saudis feared Saddam would invade them, and so invited the US in for their own protection. The reality is far different, that George Bush, Sr. pressured the Saudis into allowing the US in for reasons of its own. The propaganda of the time that this was all the Saudi's idea for their own protection was a self serving US government bit of misinformation. And THAT is why Bin-Laden turned against the US at the time of the Gulf War. This is the historical reality, which is well supported by the actual facts regarding the sequence of events and the known communications between the Bush adminstration and the Saudi government at the time. Understanding what actually happened in the Gulf War is crucial to understanding one of the main reasons for much of the hatred towards the US in the middle east today. For that reason I fully intend to refresh my memory again as to the exact details by a bit of research when I get a chance (it has been a while since I studied it and I need to go over it again) and start a separate thread about this very issue. So don't ask me to back up what I am saying with references right now. I promise to try to do so in the near future though

I agree with Kenyth. The Kuwaitis asked the US to go in. There was a risk at the time of Saudi invasion. There have been disputed borders between Arabia and Iraq for years.

In any case following Silver Cheetahs law of cause and effect it's all Britains fault, because Britain created both Kuwait and Bahrain instead of giving the oil rich Kuwaiti oil fields to Iraq. Why did they do that I wonder?

Money money money.


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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Absynthe: 32000 x 365 = 11,680,000 per year. Pardon my skepticism, but I think you may want to look at the data again. I understand your point, and even think it is a valid one, however the exaggeration of the numbers rather undermines your credibility, in my opinion.

Right on.

[Gilidarius]

I think it is time to clear a few things up.

1) When I wrote 6000 white Americans my point was Americans in general. I am very suprised that I wrote "white" and that was not my intention. Although I was using the term "white" to highlight the contrasting differneces between the middle east and America. It was not intended to be racist and in hindsight I should not have said it and I appologize.

2) I rechecked the figures and they are very eluding. The aid program states that 32,000 children die a night. It does not say Africa even though this program only works in Africa. 11 Million is a huge amount. But if the aid program was using the 32000 children as a world figure instead of Africa then it is very misleading.

3) I will never again post messages about terrorism after a night of drinking. Although it has brought up some very interesting discussions about Africa, Capitalism/Socialism and other issues.

World hunger is everyones problem (not just Americas) and it can not be fixed over night. Although it is a shame that such a large percentage of wealth is held by such a small percentage of people. That is the real crime.