Seeking advice for a dual class F/T

[Marty4]

For the armor situation, there is also a nice set of interesting armor that might help you out later in the game. I assume that you have already beat this game, so you probably know what I'm not spoiling.

[NobleNick]

CerebroDragon,

If you want those PP in GreatSword (instead of Bow) or want a LongSword (instead of GreatSword); you could just use DaleKeeper to "correct" your build, and then press on from there. I did this when I inadvertently stacked in a ranged weapon (Bow) that my Fighter could not carry over into my first DC F/D.

If you take your character to F[12], you can max out both weapons. This is definitely not overkill if you plan on doing HoW and TotLM. You could even go to F[13] for the extra THAC0 point and 1/2 ApR; but by this time you will already have 3 ApR, so many would say getting to 3.5 is not worth the wait. I have a DC F[9]/T in TotLM. I have a gazillion Thief levels on this gal, and wish I had used some of that expo to go to F[12] or F[13].

I use backstab VERY rarely (never got into the habit of uneccessarily exposing my Thief, since she was MCed with the valuable-yet-weak Mage in my first adventures); so must admit cluelessness on this topic. However, I thought that an MCed or DCed Fighter/Thief could backstab with any edged weapon.

On the armor, I have always done the cheesy thing and just carry the most high-powered stuff a Fighter could wear (and nothing else). When Thieving skills are needed, my F/T doffs the stuff just long enough to accomplish the task in her underwear, and then dons armor again. Very cheesy; and very, VERY cheesy if you are doing the backstab thing.

No F[9] before DD, Aerich? I must be camping more than I realized...

--------------------
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!


[ 11-21-2004, 11:06 AM: Message edited by: NobleNick ]

[Aerich]

You probably will get to F lvl 9 before DD, but only just. I have a MC F/C at lvl 9/10 in the drow portion of DD (read, about halfway through the fighter level), but that's on insane, and I camped for a while on DE lvl 3 after I dualed a character. You might get there in one of the towers in the Severed Hand if you don't camp, but probably not earlier.

[Otto]

Originally posted by CerebroDragon: This time around however, I'm intending to create a shamelessly vicious powergaming Dual Classed Fighter/Thief, who will hopefully become a roaming shadowy nightmare to hostile creatures on the battlefield. [img]graemlins/knightsmile.gif[/img]

If all you want is a shadowy nightmare, you might think about shifting directions.

Instead of starting as a fighter and dualing to a thief later in the game, which will take a long time to enjoy your shadowy-ness, why not start as a thief and then dual to a fighter. You don't get exceptional strength, and you lose some HP (a max of 24), but you'll get some very nice advantages:

Here's how: Place all thief skills in stealth and you will have at least 100% stealth by 4th level. Then dual to a fighter. With the combination of fighter and thief proficiencies, you can have five proficiencies in one thief weapon at F[6] instead of having to wait until F[9].

Compare:

Thief[4]/Fighter[6]
Longswords ***** (+3 H, +5 D; +1 ApR)
Bows *** (+3 H, +3 D)
Shortswords *
Attacks per Round: 2.5

with

Fighter[6]
Longswords **** (+3 H, +5 D)
Bows ** (+1 H, +2 D)
Attacks per Round: 1.5

Assuming that this character is not a frontline tank, but a shadowy nightmare or back-row archer, which would you rather take into Dragons Eye?

Later in the game, you'll enjoy the THAC0, extra attack, and proficiency bonus of T[4]/F[13].

[ 11-22-2004, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: Otto ]

[NobleNick]

Otto,

I am intrigued by your concept; but am not sure I follow you in several areas of implementation.

First, the DC character is devoid of the skills that sets him apart as a Thief: pickpocket, and the more important detect/disarm traps and unlock chests. I know: you did say, "If all you want is..." But that still looks pretty stark.

Second, I don't think your stacking will work as described. I forget if a Thief gets one or two PP to start. For sake of argument, call it two. And he gets another at T[4]. Let's continue with your assumption that the F/T's primary weapon will be LongSword and Bow. Well, your Thief can stack one high in LongSword and Bow, to start; and (continuing with your example) place the PP at T[4] into ShortSword. Then he DCs to Fighter. Any PP placed by the Fighter in LongSword and Bow, before Thief skills are regained, will map over the Thief PP; and the Thief's PP will be lost. Which gives a build of:

Thief[4]/Fighter[6] (numbers do not include weapon's bonuses)
Longswords **** (+3 H, +4 D, +0.5 ApR)
Bows ** (+3 H, +3 D, +0.5 ApR)
Shortswords *
Attacks per Round: 1.5 (with LongSword or Bow)

1.5 ApR is the best you can do for any SC/DC/MC character where the highest class is under CLVL 7 (discounting the Ranger's bonus attack if he goes shieldless with a single handed weapon).

A Thief set on not losing any PP might have a build more like:

Thief[4]/Fighter[6] (numbers do not include weapon's bonuses)
Longswords **** (+3 H, +4 D, +0.5 ApR)
Bows ** (+3 H, +3 D, +0.5 ApR)
Shortswords *
Clubs *
Daggers *
Attacks per Round: 1.5 (with LongSword or Bow)

Which definitely has more breadth than a F[6], but no more depth. This is exactly the same as the best build you can get with F[6]/T[4] (except the points in LongSword and Bow will not be available until F[6]/T[7] ).

In addition to the original direction you went with this (which holds some promise), there is room to explore other possibilities. If you split Thief skills into Stealth and Detect/Disarm Traps and went to T[6], I wonder if you would have enough Thief "punch" to make up for the loss of HP. And I wonder how that build would compare to, say, the F[9]/T and the MC F/T. I like your idea of continuing as a Fighter, with constantly improving THAC0 and spradically improving ApR.

--------------------
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!


[ 11-22-2004, 03:23 PM: Message edited by: NobleNick ]

[CerebroDragon]

Fascinating discussion, all round chaps.

It hadn't really occured to me to try DCing the other way around to be honest. The only downside I can see is that at the beginning of the game it would have been just that little bit harder with only my paladin, druid, cleric, mage, bard and a thief instead of a fighter. Still, would have made a decent challenge. If I find this experience of DCing enjoyable, I'll be sure to try it again sometime.

My party is now starting to take on the various towers in the Severed Hand. ThornThistle is level 8 now and has a whopping 51% of kills so far. He often has to cover my forever fleeing paladin tank whom I bitterly regret not assigning a better dex to. (14)
I'm sure the killing percentages will change slightly when DCing time comes...I don't think I'll be waiting until level 13 however, even if I haven't been missing the lockpicking skills at all yet.

An amusing anecdote:
Whilst battling furiously through the third level of the Solonar tower against a large batch of clerics, my paladin, the ever 'better part of valourious' Sir Valarian, was completely surrounded and after taking a critical hit which nearly took his head, was heard to spout "Priest...I need a priest!" Needless to say, he was unaware of the dark irony when he died, causing me to reload.

Are there any masochistic sods like me who like to win battles with the most underpowered/fatigued parties? There's a certain thrill when you survive when you've barely any spells, no healing, with everyone on the brink of death. When my party emerged from Dragon's Eye this time for instance, they were so ragged that they were practically the walking dead. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Otto]

Originally posted by NobleNick: I don't think your stacking will work as described... Any PP placed by the Fighter in LongSword and Bow, before Thief skills are regained, will map over the Thief PP; and the Thief's PP will be lost.

I think depends on whether or not you have HOW or the patches installed. I originally tried this with just IWD and not HOW and the weapon proficiencies didn't get mapped over. However, my T[4]/F[x] had all thieving skills in Find/Remove Traps. This was the only skill really needed since the Bard could pick pockets, the Ranger had stealth, and the mage could "knock" doors and chests.

For just a good generic fighter/thief, a gnome or halfling multi-class would be good because of the Helm of the Trusted Defender. An elf F/T is a good choice if there's no elf ranger in the party. The elf F/T with DEX=19 makes a good archer and he can wear the Rogue's Cowl for AC bonus. The benefit to having the multiclass is being able to use thieving skills thoughout Vale of Shadows and Dragons Eye (where they're most needed).

[Otto]

Originally posted by CerebroDragon: Are there any masochistic sods like me who like to win battles with the most underpowered/fatigued parties? There's a certain thrill when you survive when you've barely any spells, no healing, with everyone on the brink of death. When my party emerged from Dragon's Eye this time for instance, they were so ragged that they were practically the walking dead. [img]smile.gif[/img]

I like soloing with a single-class character, which is as underpowered as I get. So far I've soloed the entire game with an elf ranger and a human paladin, both with very few reloads. I also tried soloing with a half-elf bard and a halfling thief (for a real challenge), but didn't finish with either of these. I do think both have potential at the "core" (normal) difficulty.

[CerebroDragon]

Well, believe it or not, I've resisted the temptation to DC at level 9!

ThornThistle made level 9 after a severely sharp encounter with two Drow Spellswords in Dorn's Deep. (Good guess Aerich) [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

So I'm going to wait a bit longer until I'm better prepared weapon/armour wise for the class change, otherwise there will be quite a few items I'd be dropping or selling or just taking up space whilst I get my fighter levels back. Admittedly I'm quite attached to ol' Thorny as he is, but I'm looking towards F(12) now. [img]smile.gif[/img]

To Chapter 6 we go!
Tally ho!

[ 12-05-2004, 10:36 AM: Message edited by: CerebroDragon ]

[Otto]

Your situation has been my argument against dual-classing all along.

Yes, dual classing produces an overall more powerful character than multi-classing, but if you can get past Dragon's Eye and Severed Hand without the second class then you don't really need it, especially when the second class is a thief.

I would guess that the game design is such that 80-90% of the thief's abiltities would be used before Upper Dorns Deep. You might as well just keep ThornThisle as a fighter and just absorb the damage from any further traps you might stumble across. Besides, you party's saves will be low enough that you'll avoid a lot of damage anyway.