UK Tax dollars (pounds) hard at work!

Werd TL (Geez I thought that expression was gone with Leathal weapon 4)

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by Eisenschwarz: quote: If you want less bums, you need a better welfare safety net. could you also please cite these amazing luxery prisons please? I don't think murders get put in prisons with all that, In fact IIRC, america has pretty bad prison conditions.

No, I won't cite these amazing luxury prisons. I listed the things most normal prisoners can reasonably be allowed access to in limited amounts. And I admit that rougher prisoners get less access. If you want me to go prove the phases of the moon, you can forget it.

We do need a better welfare safety net. AFDC is a joke and Food Stamps are illegally traded nearly as much as they are legally spent. If you'd like me to prove this, again you can forget it. Look it up in Louisville, KY newspapers online - as that city is generally considered the food stamp laundering capital in the US.

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Don't forget about the free health care. I've read about folks with really bad, terminal if not treated, diseases committing crime just to get the health care.

Could you please Cite these?

Again, no. I'm sure you're not challenging the free health care, so you're asking about a particular instance of someone committing a crime to go to jail. I don't need to cite an actual instance to point out the flaw that *could* happen, though I do remember reading about actual instances. Again, do your own research.

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: [edit]: On Topic, but I just remembered: There was a case recently where a death row inmate was horribly sick. They postponed the execution so he could get well. Apparently, most state statutes only allow the execution of healthy prisoners. STOOPID. This is the kind of thing that makes me want to go postal (well, not really) whenever I get my paycheck and notice the 30% taken by Uncle Obese Wasteful Idiotic Sam.

I agree, it's a waste of money to have so many people locked up and executed.[/QB][/QUOTE]I assume you'd rather pay to imprison them for life. Do you realize it costs $30k a year to keep someone in prison in the US? I say shoot 'em within 10 days of incarceration and save us the money. Actually, I'm not that right-wing on this issue, but your continued drivel irks me.

Which is why I'm not citing things for you like I generally would. On that point, by the way, saying "prove this, prove that" means you don't really have good counterarguments and are simply being polemico. If you want me to do your research, I charge $175/hr. Let me know if you're interested and I'll send you a contract.

[Larry_OHF]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: If you want me to do your research, I charge $175/hr. Let me know if you're interested and I'll send you a contract.

Dang!
You're pretty cheap!
How do you manage with such a minimal income?

[Timber Loftis]

Oh, if only I ever got to see it. What my firm charges and what I get paid are two VERY different things.

BTW, just so's you know: in any profession, you need your worker sitting at his desk to bring in 4X his salary in a year to make it worth your while. (What with loaded labor costs, support staff and all that). And, with young guys like myself, who aren't as knowledgible, a lot of our time gets written off. Such is life.

[Larry_OHF]

So...you're saying that your wife is a big spender, and loves to shop with your money...right?

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Oh, if only I ever got to see it. What my firm charges and what I get paid are two VERY different things. BTW, just so's you know: in any profession, you need your worker sitting at his desk to bring in 4X his salary in a year to make it worth your while. (What with loaded labor costs, support staff and all that). And, with young guys like myself, who aren't as knowledgible, a lot of our time gets written off. Such is life.

LOL you can say that again TL, when I was doing consulting work they charged aroun $150 for my time.....I was only making about 1/4 of that at the time.

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by Larry_OHF: So...you're saying that your wife is a big spender, and loves to shop with your money...right?

ROFL!

Actually, she's a young prosecutor. Now, there's the job: crap wages, you deal with society's *best* people all day long, and you're overworked as hell. See, she doesn't have time to spend my money. Now, aren't all you married guys jealous.

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: How poetic Eisenschwarz. Is that yours?

I’ve heard the two phrases used separarely elsewhere, but It would be my special conceit to think that I arranged them into that form.

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Anyway, it's not an emotion-driven thing. I think that PUNISHMENT is a perfectly valid reason to incarcerate people. I know that in the EU, the justification is much more related to public safety, but there are several reasons a society may rely on to exact criminal punishment, including: punishment/vengeance

Hmm, Now What I think, Is that the Idea of Vengence plays no part in what we would term justice, That said, Justice is a human thing, doled out by humans.
but I do not see vengence as a part of it.

When I think of vengence, I think of I think of lynch mobs.
Of "winners Justice".

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: public safety/ removal of a danger from society

That sometimes has to be done, however prison is not appropriate for all things.
I'd like to see longer sentances for violent offences, but shorter ones for drugs related ones (depending on the severity, major dealing is obvisly different from simply takeing)

Indeed More emphisis needs to placed on stoping people from re-offending, for example programmes etc, of course this all costs money...

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: deterrent to would-be criminals

It's not a deterrent,
Peopele don't think about the punishment, they think about getting cought.

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: In America, our gov. condones the first on this list. The EU's rejection, to a large degree, of the "vengeance" justification for punishment is the largest reason the EU outlaws the death penalty. That said, some countries, like the US, do not outlaw it.

SAdly, Since the Death penatly is universally seen here at least as a barbaric and untoward thing.
I can only be pleased that we dont have it,
Since the execution of innocents is one of the greatest crimes upon the american state.
did you know also, that South carolina IIRC, Executed a 14 year old Black boy in 1944, over unproven rape allegations that seemed to be mainly brought beceauyse he was black.
To me, That is a gross offence of the highest nature,
I don't think even China executes children.

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Vengeance is, to some degree, emotional. But, it's also an attempt to repay the victim of crimes by punishing the criminal equally - Hammurabi and all that. I know there are logical inconsistencies in it, but, well, hell, hypocricy exists in all of life. Anyway, if the goal is, in part, to punish, someone who has been convicted for 6 (yes, IIRC it said 6) murders should be more harshly treated. Allowing them so many of the freedoms they have outside of prison is, IMNSHO, simply giving them a free confined comfortable life. That's a waste, and it does not accomplish a very valid goal of the punishment to begin with.

Actually last time I popped over to Paris for the weekend
(well err.. The only time I've been to Paris) I went to the louvre mainly because I wanted to see Hammurabi’s code, But much to my disappointment, they'd loaned it to some Japanese institution.

N0w as I see it, to lock someone up forever for commiting such crimes is only right and proper. But now, When we (we as in the goverment with the mandate of the people through the popular vote, Though given the lowering levels of participations wether many goverments acutally do have the popular mandate is another question...) lock someone up, we have a responsibility for them,
We deprive them of the ability to support themselves and provide for themselves in order to protect society at large.
Thus since we take away that, we have a duty to provide for them.
Since first of all, innocent people are convitcted sometimes, and we don't want them dying or something.
Secondaly, I don't think People should be "treated Harshly" to me that speaks of allowing wilful suffering and pain.
and that's not something that should be allowed(TM)
I daresay that peopel will suffer from being imprisoned in some ways, for example their life may lack meaning or something, but that can;t be helped.
But to deliberatly impose suffering on anyone, where is is not nesecerry is barbaric.

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: You may not agree with my take on this, but I bet you won't deny my assertion that it's not my emotional drive. ■■■■■-fied was the way I chose to frame it, but any personal offense I take to it is certainly intellectual, not emotional.

FRIEDEN!
GERECHTIGKEIT!
BRÜDERLICHE LIEBE!
LANGES HAAR!
WELT PFIRSICH! ;o)

[Bardan the Slayer]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: 6. This is the kind of thing that makes me wish we'd just castrate sex offenders

Which is utterly ineffective and actually counter-productive. It means that the offender when (if) he is released merely has a newfound grudge against society and continues to rape, only with other objects than his ex-penis, with greater venom than before, taking his rage at what was done to him out on his next poor victim.

Don't get me wrong - in my view, rape is torture and that should result in a very very long time in prison and lack of rights (certainly the 'right' to porn?!?!?). I also tend to believe that rapists are non-reformable, and child sex offenders are certainly non-reformable. However, medievil violence against offenders suffers from the same pitfall as the death sentence - sooner or later you will kill/castrate an innocent man.

[Timber Loftis]

Eisenschwartz:

My German is not good at all, but I think your post says, at the end:
PEACE! JUSTICE! ??? LOVE! LONG HAIR! WORLD PEACE!
Now what that has to do with my post is tangential at most.

I agree that drug offenders should be punished less. In fact, I'm for legalizing most controlled substances.

Your justification to treat prisoners well based on the fact that some innocents are convicted falls on deaf ears. You set the bar high enough (Beyond any reasonable doubt) as far as proof goes to ensure you don't wrongfully convict. Once you've convicted, it is counterproductive to still leave a lingering doubt.

Now, on the death penalty topic, this argument rings more true, because you cannot make it up to the wrongfully executed. This is in fact why I think the death penalty cannot be logically justified. Quite simply, because of the penultimate nature of such a sentence, even 1 in 1 trillion mistakes is too many. With imprisonment, when you find out you've wrongfully convicted, you can at least let them out to live out the rest of their lives - and you can perhaps pay repairation, which they would reasonably deserve for giving up years of their life.

This stems from my belief that all people should be held to and accountable for their mistakes. This goes for society as a whole as well. When someone is wrongfully executed, no one pays the price. It gives prosecutors carte blanche to go for the throat - usually a politically driven decision by a selfish and power-lusty prosecutor (many of whom become politicians). Now, if you could find me some government official willing to "sign off" on executions as 100% justified and agree to forfeit their life if in fact the execution later turned out to be wrongful, I'd say there'd be enough certainty and accountability to justify the executions. That, I would support.

Thanks for posting something that was at least non-polemico and reasonably well thought-out for a change.