Free David Hicks

[Yorick]

Originally posted by johnny: The koran says that it's okay for a muslim to lie against, or steal from infidels, so he could just as easily be welcomed back as the clever hero who deceived the great satan, and rejoin the jihad as a shining example for the other mujahedeen. That's why i say releasing Hicks is no option, making him disapear seems the best option.

Whenever I quote from the Bible or Qu'ran I include the reference numbers so that people can crossreferece themselves if they see the need. You can't just put words into Muslims mouths and misrepresent them. Show the Sura numbers or retract.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by johnny: quote: Originally posted by ZFR: quote: Originally posted by johnny: The koran says that it's okay for a muslim to lie against, or steal from infidels,

Find me the verse in the koran that says that, or don't quote books you know nothing about. [/QUOTE]I read it somewhere sometime ago, go find it yourself, i'm not your friggin dog. If i wouldn't have read it, i wouldn't quote it here, so if you're calling me a liar, don't beat around the bush and just say so. Same thing is also in the Torah btw, or don't you believe that either ? [/QUOTE]What book, what chapter and what verse of the Torah Johnny.

Yes you are lying or talking out of your arse if you can't provide the references. Rule # 1 of quoting scripture is to provide where it's come from. CONTEXT is everything. You could say anything at all by taking verses out of context. Posting the references allows us to read the context for ourselves to understand it's meaning, rather than just taking your word for it.

Which if you'll pardon me, I just won't do.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by machinehead: Imam Abu Hammid Ghazali says: "Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible." (Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri, The Reliance of the Traveller, translated by Nuh Ha Mim Keller, amana publications, 1997, section r8.2, page 745) Note that Al-Ghazali is one of the most famous and respected Muslim theologians of all time.

Perhaps so, but was he Sunni, Shia, Sufi or Wahabist? [img]tongue.gif[/img]

The point is, it's not the Qu'ran, and it's not a Hadith either. It's just an opinion, and we all know how many opinions there are floating around. Does he offer Surah numbers or Hadithic references to back up his opinion, or is he claiming to speak for Allah?

[Micah Foehammer]

Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by johnny: The koran says that it's okay for a muslim to lie against, or steal from infidels, so he could just as easily be welcomed back as the clever hero who deceived the great satan, and rejoin the jihad as a shining example for the other mujahedeen. That's why i say releasing Hicks is no option, making him disapear seems the best option.

Whenever I quote from the Bible or Qu'ran I include the reference numbers so that people can crossreferece themselves if they see the need. You can't just put words into Muslims mouths and misrepresent them. Show the Sura numbers or retract. [/QUOTE]Johnny won't - but I will. Repeated from an earlier post.

The word for it in Arabic is Al-Taqiyya.

"Concealing or disguising one's
beliefs, convictions, ideas, feelings, opinions, and/or strategies at a
time of eminent danger, whether now or later in time, to save oneself from
physical and/or mental injury." A one-word translation would be
"Dissimulation."

Shi'as justify the practice using the following verse from the Qur'an:

"[Yusufali 16:106]Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief, except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith, but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty."

And the following

"[Shakir 3:28] Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends (awliyaa) rather than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of (the guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard (tattaqoo) yourselves against them, guarding carefully (tuqatan); and Allah makes you cautious of (retribution from) Himself; and to Allah is the eventual coming."


According to Shi'a interpretation of these verses, 3:28 is telling that believers should not take unbelievers as Walis rather than believers; those who do it will lose the wilayat (5:55) of God, that is unless they are using taqiya/protecting themselves, and doing so with caution.

On the other hand, most Sunnis generally assert that the Shi'a doctrine of taqiyya isn't in accordance with its acceptable use (to save one's life). They assert that Shi'as have been using taqiyya as a tool of deception, not to save their own lives, but to cause strife for the Sunni Calipha (which was resented by Shi'as) and to legitimize their own minority faith in the eyes of a majority by whom it is constantly surrounded.

[ZFR]

Originally posted by machinehead: Imam Abu Hammid Ghazali says: "Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible." (Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri, The Reliance of the Traveller, translated by Nuh Ha Mim Keller, amana publications, 1997, section r8.2, page 745) Note that Al-Ghazali is one of the most famous and respected Muslim theologians of all time.

This is not the Quran!

If the Pope (or one of the most respected Christian theologians) says something, would you say "it is written in the Gospels that..."?

The two verses Micah mentioned do refer the taqiya. But there is nothing written about them about stealing.

These verses are:

[3:28] The believers never ally themselves with the disbelievers, instead of the believers. Whoever does this is exiled from GOD. Exempted are those who are forced to do this to avoid persecution. GOD alerts you that you shall reverence Him alone. To GOD is the ultimate destiny.

and

[16:106] Those who disbelieve in GOD, after having acquired faith, and become fully content with disbelief, have incurred wrath from GOD. The only ones to be excused are those who are forced to profess disbelief, while their hearts are full of faith.

1. These verses do not talk about lying in general but about particular lying: lying about your faith (hiding the fact that you are muslim)
2. They do not say: "you are allowed to lie to infidels" but "you are allowed to lie if under persecution to avoid it".
So it's not "you are allowed to lie to person X" but "you are allowed to lie under circumstance Y"
3. It says nothing about stealing.

So changing the sentence "you may lie about your faith to avoid persecution" to "you are allowed to lie and steal from infidels" is complete BS.

If you said the first sentence would you like it if someone quoted the second and said it's an equivalent of what you said?

_______________________________

That aside, I'll grant you this: many muslims religious leaders do allow you lying to infidels just like you said. But the quran doesn't say it!

I was not trying to defend them.

Only don't write "Quran says" unless it actually says so. "Muslims say..." would be right.

EDIT: 3 posts beat me to this..

[ 11-30-2006, 12:30 PM: Message edited by: ZFR ]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Micah Foehammer: quote: Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by johnny: The koran says that it's okay for a muslim to lie against, or steal from infidels, so he could just as easily be welcomed back as the clever hero who deceived the great satan, and rejoin the jihad as a shining example for the other mujahedeen. That's why i say releasing Hicks is no option, making him disapear seems the best option.

Whenever I quote from the Bible or Qu'ran I include the reference numbers so that people can crossreferece themselves if they see the need. You can't just put words into Muslims mouths and misrepresent them. Show the Sura numbers or retract. [/QUOTE]Johnny won't - but I will. Repeated from an earlier post.

The word for it in Arabic is Al-Taqiyya.

"Concealing or disguising one's
beliefs, convictions, ideas, feelings, opinions, and/or strategies at a
time of eminent danger, whether now or later in time, to save oneself from
physical and/or mental injury." A one-word translation would be
"Dissimulation."

Shi'as justify the practice using the following verse from the Qur'an:

"[Yusufali 16:106]Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief, except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith, but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty."

And the following

"[Shakir 3:28] Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends (awliyaa) rather than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of (the guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard (tattaqoo) yourselves against them, guarding carefully (tuqatan); and Allah makes you cautious of (retribution from) Himself; and to Allah is the eventual coming."


According to Shi'a interpretation of these verses, 3:28 is telling that believers should not take unbelievers as Walis rather than believers; those who do it will lose the wilayat (5:55) of God, that is unless they are using taqiya/protecting themselves, and doing so with caution.

On the other hand, most Sunnis generally assert that the Shi'a doctrine of taqiyya isn't in accordance with its acceptable use (to save one's life). They assert that Shi'as have been using taqiyya as a tool of deception, not to save their own lives, but to cause strife for the Sunni Calipha (which was resented by Shi'as) and to legitimize their own minority faith in the eyes of a majority by whom it is constantly surrounded. [/QUOTE]Cool. Thanks for the references. They're not saying what Johnny said they were saying though.

Now, what about the Torah?

[Micah Foehammer]

Originally posted by ZFR: That aside, I'll grant you this: many muslims religious leaders do allow you lying to infidels just like you said. But the quran doesn't say it! I was not trying to defend them. Only don't write "Quran says" unless it actually says so. "Muslims say..." would be right. [/QB]

Just as in any religion, different sects will interpret things differently. That the Qu'ran DOES endorse falsehood is NOT in dispute.

What is at dispute is how those particular endorsements are to be interpreted and when they are to be applied. As you yourself said, "many muslims religious leaders do allow you lying to infidels just like you said." Machineheads quote, which I also read at the same site where I found the quotes from the Qu'ran, is simply ONE such interpretation. There are most certainly others, and they will most certainly be different. I'm not about to look for ALL of them, nor to dispute which one is accurate. How could I possibly, since no one interpretation is right or wrong? [img]smile.gif[/img]


"Only don't write "Quran says" unless it actually says so. "Muslims say..." would be right." - Good point! [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by ZFR: quote: Originally posted by machinehead: Imam Abu Hammid Ghazali says: "Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible." (Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri, The Reliance of the Traveller, translated by Nuh Ha Mim Keller, amana publications, 1997, section r8.2, page 745) Note that Al-Ghazali is one of the most famous and respected Muslim theologians of all time.

This is not the Quran!

If the Pope (or one of the most respected Christian theologians) says something, would you say "it is written in the Gospels that..."?

The two verses Micah mentioned do refer the taqiya. But there is nothing written about them about stealing.

These verses are:

[3:28] The believers never ally themselves with the disbelievers, instead of the believers. Whoever does this is exiled from GOD. Exempted are those who are forced to do this to avoid persecution. GOD alerts you that you shall reverence Him alone. To GOD is the ultimate destiny.

and

[16:106] Those who disbelieve in GOD, after having acquired faith, and become fully content with disbelief, have incurred wrath from GOD. The only ones to be excused are those who are forced to profess disbelief, while their hearts are full of faith.

1. These verses do not talk about lying in general but about particular lying: lying about your faith (hiding the fact that you are muslim)
2. They do not say: "you are allowed to lie to infidels" but "you are allowed to lie if under persecution to avoid it".
So it's not "you are allowed to lie to person X" but "you are allowed to lie under circumstance Y"
3. It says nothing about stealing.

So changing the sentence "you may lie about your faith to avoid persecution" to "you are allowed to lie and steal from infidels" is complete BS.

If you said the first sentence would you like it if someone quoted the second and said it's an equivalent of what you said?

_______________________________

That aside, I'll grant you this: many muslims religious leaders do allow you lying to infidels just like you said. But the quran doesn't say it!

I was not trying to defend them.

Only don't write "Quran says" unless it actually says so. "Muslims say..." would be right.

EDIT: 3 posts beat me to this.. [/QUOTE]Well said ZFR!

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Micah Foehammer: quote: Originally posted by ZFR: That aside, I'll grant you this: many muslims religious leaders do allow you lying to infidels just like you said. But the quran doesn't say it! I was not trying to defend them. Only don't write "Quran says" unless it actually says so. "Muslims say..." would be right.

Just as in any religion, different sects will interpret things differently. That the Qu'ran DOES endorse falsehood is NOT in dispute.

What is at dispute is how those particular endorsements are to be interpreted and when they are to be applied. As you yourself said, "many muslims religious leaders do allow you lying to infidels just like you said." Machineheads quote, which I also read at the same site where I found the quotes from the Qu'ran, is simply ONE such interpretation. There are most certainly others, and they will most certainly be different. I'm not about to look for ALL of them, nor to dispute which one is accurate. How could I possibly, since no one interpretation is right or wrong? [img]smile.gif[/img]


"Only don't write "Quran says" unless it actually says so. "Muslims say..." would be right." - Good point! [img]smile.gif[/img] [/QB][/QUOTE]I'd actually say "some Muslims have said" then you're not speaking for those that haven't.

[robertthebard]

Ok, so what I take away from all that is that it's to be implied that Hicks doesn't belong to the group of Muslims that have said it's ok to lie to infidels? Curious.