On Nazism

[Diogenes Of Pumpkintown]

Originally posted by Nachtrafe: And Dio! Shame on you. This whole 'Thread' is nothing more than a massive flamebait. Comparing contemporary Americans to Nazi's is designed to do nothing more than incite those same Americans to anger. I, and others, expect much better from you than petty incitement.

I was examining the notion of patriotism, love of country. I was NOT saying that the typcial american was a Nazi. Hell, the typical German wasn't a Nazi either, under Hitler's regime. However, I am convinced that the sentiment of nationalist patriotism is not a productive emotion, but rather one responsible for all sorts of evil in the world. The sentiment "my country, right or wrong" is an evil one, imo. It only serves to increase injustice in the world through the willingess of people to blindly give their support to their government, no matter what its policies, in the name of loyalty and duty.

As for your accusation that this whole thread is nothing but a flamebait, I am guilty of trying to provoke thought, yes, and I am not holding back much in doing so. However, this is not the same as "flamebaiting" and I find it disappointing when people take the attitude that trying to provoke thought is the same as trying to stir up trouble. Though I guess I shouldn't be surprised, it has been common throughout history for people trying to stir up thought to be accused of being troublemakers by apologists for the status quo.

[This message has been edited by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown (edited 10-08-2001).]

[Diogenes Of Pumpkintown]

Originally posted by WOLFGIR: Well concerning the similarities with Germany during ww2 and before and US today.. I think that we can see some similarities, which you can see in ALOT of democracies around the world. Media coverage and media putting the message to people. Though Nazi germany had had a more severe time after the great war and lay in a deep depression. Nazist came with promises, and kept most of them. Lifted Germany up to a big and strong nation. There the possible connection stops. Germanny was lead by a maniac that swore in the people to him, and bound by honor the army followed his commands. They put their anger towars one part, it is so much easier to blame a third part. From that Nazism freefalled into the typical fascist propaganda. USA today have a goal and a goal which is to stop terrorism. They cooperate with NATO countries and tries to get a global rejection of terrorism. That US today is filled with Patritism, can you blame them? Is it wrong for a nation to join up against opression?? Well, depends on how things turn around. But I wouldn´t say that it is close to Nazism..

Arrrrggggghhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wolfgir, this is not directed against just you, but to many people in this thread.

The point of this thread is NOT to say that Americans are Nazis. The point is about the sentiment of patriotism, of blind flag waving loyalty to one's nation and government, a MORALLY NEUTRAL position which gives those same governments immense power to do both good and evil from the unquestioning support of the people.

[Diogenes Of Pumpkintown]

Originally posted by Yorick: Dio, politics has nothing to do with patriotism. Politics is the consequence of two or more humans together, working to ensure their individual agenda is met. Patriotism is love. Love for ones country. The willingness to die for ones country involves a form of patriotism, but is not limited to that. America is a very openly patriotic nation. Australia by contrast is almost the antithesis of this - unless the Australian is outside their country, or living during an Olympic games in their country. That is when an Australian is patriotic.

Yorick, one might just as well argue that racism is love, love for one's own race, and of course that doesn't mean one hates other races or that such a feeling has negative consequences.

You seem hung up on the term "patriotism". Would the word "nationalism" instead make you feel better? I don't mean to reduce this debate into a quibbling over terminology. My point is about that sentiment of blind flag waving loyalty to ones country, "right or wrong", whatever label you wish to attach to it. If your disagreement here is just about the definition of "patriotism", then fine, we'll change the terminology -- I don't really give a damn what label you attach to it, my beef is with the underlying sentiment.


[This message has been edited by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown (edited 10-08-2001).]

[Yorick]

Dio, racism is not the love of ones race, that is nationalism. Racism is detrimentally discriminational ideas and behaviour towards one or more races.

Nationalism can begat racism. Nazi Germany was nationalistic. Revolutionary France was nationalistic. America has nowhere near the level of nationalism as the third Reich, and the ethnic diversity would make the subsequent racism that followed suicidal. It also makes the term somewhat defunct because the homogenity of race within the nation is not there. Americans as a race have not existed as long as the Germanic race. At the moment it is a melting pot of many nationalities.

America is patriotic however.

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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[Diogenes Of Pumpkintown]

Originally posted by Yorick: Dio, racism is not the love of ones race, that is nationalism. Racism is detrimentally discriminational ideas and behaviour towards one or more races. Nationalism can begat racism. Nazi Germany was nationalistic. Revolutionary France was nationalistic. America has nowhere near the level of nationalism as the third Reich, and the ethnic diversity would make the subsequent racism that followed suicidal. It also makes the term somewhat defunct because the homogenity of race within the nation is not there. Americans as a race have not existed as long as the Germanic race. At the moment it is a melting pot of many nationalities. America is patriotic however.

Yorick, you are avoiding the central issue here. Forget the labels for a moment and concentrate on the underlying principles.

Do you, or do you not, agree with the principle "my country, right or wrong," for whether you want to admit it or not, that is the exact principle that many people operate under, politically.


[This message has been edited by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown (edited 10-08-2001).]

[Kaz]

Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown: Yorick, you are avoiding the central issue here. Forget the labels for a moment and concentrate on the underlying principles. Do you, or do you not, agree with the principle "my country, right or wrong," for whether you want to admit it or not, that is the exact principle that many people operate under, politically.

Dio, I'm with you here. Love your country, ok, but don't let that love blind you. "my country, right or wrong" IS A VERY DANGEROUS SENTIMENT. Think about what it means - "I will follow my country, WHETHER IT IS FOR A JUST OR FOR AN UNJUST CAUSE." Healthy patriotism/nationalism whatever you want to call it, is, as I posted above, to love your country but to see that it is NOT infallible, that its leaders are just human, and to actively work to make your country better so that all may love it as you do. Unhealthy patriotism/nationalism is following your country, whatever it does!

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[Yorick]

Is "for better or worse" any different? What if your spouse becomes a rampant axe murderer? You can love your spouse yet be appalled at the action, just as you can love your country, and be appalled at the action.

"My country right or wrong" implies the understanding that courses of action may be taken with which the individual disagrees. The love for the country is not affected however.

This is not blind support. Blind support is blind support, and is only loving ones country when right. No love exists when wrong because there is no conciousness of "wrong" from the country when one is blindly supporting it.

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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[Diogenes Of Pumpkintown]

Originally posted by Yorick: "My country right or wrong" implies the understanding that courses of action may be taken with which the individual disagrees. The love for the country is not affected however. This is not blind support. Blind support is blind support, and is only loving ones country when right. No love exists when wrong because there is no conciousness of "wrong" from the country when one is blindly supporting it.

I'm not sure if I follow you, but if you are saying that "my country right or wrong" requires a conscious decision to do wrong, then I disagree. Most often this sentiment manifests itself not so much as the conscious going along with wrong, but rather as the feeling that one should just follow the leaders, accept what they say, and not look too deeply into the question of whether the leaders themselves are right or wrong, but rather take the position that "it is not our place to question the leaders, who have information that we don't have and our best interests in mind", which I have seen expressed on this forum recently. It is not so much a conscious decision to go along with wrong, but rather a wilful decision to not look to deeply into issues to begin with, sort of a wilful ignorance and desire to just follow along, replacing any semblance of independent thought.

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by Yorick: Dio, politics has nothing to do with patriotism. Politics is the consequence of two or more humans together, working to ensure their individual agenda is met. Patriotism is love. Love for ones country. The willingness to die for ones country involves a form of patriotism, but is not limited to that. America is a very openly patriotic nation. Australia by contrast is almost the antithesis of this - unless the Australian is outside their country, or living during an Olympic games in their country. That is when an Australian is patriotic.

Patriotism. Bizarre concept. Personally, I don't have it. And I certainly don't believe in 'my country right or wrong'. Why is one country better than another just because I live in it? I like England a lot. I like Holland too, and Italy. I have lived in all three. I don't think there is anything intrinsically better about England because I was born there, in fact in many ways Holland is superior (socially) as is Italy (culinarily!). England is beautiful, though. But so is every other country I have visited. I like English people. I like Dutch people too, and Italian people, and American people, and Chinese people.... I don't think one is better than another.

Patriotism encourages the view that your country is better than another country, when in fact that may not be so, at least it does in the sense that most people on the board seem to be using it.

I do think patriotism can make people accept courses of action taken by their own leaders that perhaps they wouldnt' accept in leaders of other countries. It seems to blunts the discerning faculties. It can easily lead to racism, and has, time and time again. (ie. the idea of being superior to those who are different.)

You have a country? Great. Celebrate it! But don't back it against all comers, right or wrong. Why is an action your country takes right, just because it is taken by your country? I'm not saying for a moment that everyone on this forum thinks that way. But I've heard a lot of Americans speaking on radio, and reported in the newspapers over the past month or so, and there is a good deal of that attitude. It's right because we're doing it.



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[Tuor]

Originally posted by Silver Cheetah: Patriotism. Bizarre concept. Personally, I don't have it. And I certainly don't believe in 'my country right or wrong'. Why is one country better than another just because I live in it? I like England a lot. I like Holland too, and Italy. I have lived in all three. I don't think there is anything intrinsically better about England because I was born there, in fact in many ways Holland is superior (socially) as is Italy (culinarily!). England is beautiful, though. But so is every other country I have visited. I like English people. I like Dutch people too, and Italian people, and American people, and Chinese people.... I don't think one is better than another. Patriotism encourages the view that your country is better than another country, when in fact that may not be so, at least it does in the sense that most people on the board seem to be using it. I do think patriotism can make people accept courses of action taken by their own leaders that perhaps they wouldnt' accept in leaders of other countries. It seems to blunts the discerning faculties. It can easily lead to racism, and has, time and time again. (ie. the idea of being superior to those who are different.) You have a country? Great. Celebrate it! But don't back it against all comers, right or wrong. Why is an action your country takes right, just because it is taken by your country? I'm not saying for a moment that everyone on this forum thinks that way. But I've heard a lot of Americans speaking on radio, and reported in the newspapers over the past month or so, and there is a good deal of that attitude. It's right because we're doing it.

I think this is a unique moment, I actually agree wholeheartedly with something Silver Cheetah has posted. I bet it doesn't happen agan though.

But I'll defend your right to say whatever you want to my dying breath