The Su- er... Equaliser [5th Edition]

[Dundee Slaytern]

ToB Items Spoilers
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There was an atmosphere of foreboding in the inn, as two figures sat at a table facing each other and talking in hushed tones.

"Oh fair Foebane, surely you cannot be serious about this? What can this twig of a pretender hope to offer you?"

"Crom Faeyr... you know I will not promise my hand in marriage until I am certain that my partner is the best there is on offer. You have been so faithful to me all these years, but I have received word that Equaliser can make a stronger union."

"BAH! I will crush him with my bare hands!"

"I have no doubt that you can, but... this is not about how powerful you are compared to him, but how powerful you and I are compared to me and him. Unions bring a whole new different perspective. Prepare yourself, Crom Faeyr. For the hour draws near and we shall all see who shall emerge victorious."

"I have been ready for a long time already... I shall relish pounding this... Equaliser, into the ground."

*Fast forward several days at a fairground*

"Ladiessss and gentle knights. I present to you a clash of misfit proportions! As per the rules, each contestant gets to pair up with a clone of Lady Foebane. The target is of chaotic evil, non-planar origins, everybody's base STR is 22, everybody is assumed to have grandmastered in his or her weapons of choice, everybody has the Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialisation, everybody has been altered to be level 13+ and the target has been enchanted so that they will always hit unless they fumble of course, heh, heh... ...

They have 20 rounds to do their best. The pair that deals the most damage is the winner! On your marks... get set... GO!"

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Miscellanous Information:
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Attacks per Round,

Base: 1
Warrior Bonuses: 2
GoES: 5/2
5*: 3
Dualwield: 4

Belm: 5

STR Damage Bonuses,

STR 22: +10 damage
STR 25: +14 damage

Foebane +5 & Belm +2:
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100 Attacks in 20 Rounds. 80 will be Foebane, 20 will be Belm. Out of 80 potential hits, Foebane will miss 4 times and score 4 critical hits. Belm will miss once and score one critical hit.

Foebane's Average Damage On A Normal Hit: 2d4 +5, +10, +3, +2, +1d4 = 27.5
Foebane's Average Damage On A Critical Hit: ( ( 27.5 - 2.5 ) * 2 ) + 2.5 = 52.5
20 Rounds Later: ( 27.5 * 72 ) + ( 52.5 * 4 ) = 2190

Belm's Average Damage On A Normal Hit: 1d8 +2, +10, +3, +2 = 21.5
Belm's Average Damage On A Critical Hit: 21.5 * 2 = 43
20 Rounds Later: ( 21.5 * 18 ) + 43 = 430

Grand Total: 2620
Average Damage per Round: 2620 / 20 = 131

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Foebane +5 & Equaliser +3:
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80 Attacks in 20 Rounds. 60 will be Foebane, 20 will be the Equaliser. Out of 60 potential hits, Foebane will miss 3 times and score 3 critical hits. Equaliser will miss once and score one critical hit.

Foebane's Average Damage On A Normal Hit: 2d4 +5, +10, +3, +2, +6, +1d4 = 33.5
Foebane's Average Damage On A Critical Hit: ( ( 33.5 - 2.5 ) * 2 ) + 2.5 = 64.5
20 Rounds Later: ( 33.5 * 54 ) + ( 64.5 * 3 ) = 2002.5

Equaliser's Average Damage On A Normal Hit: 1d8 +6, +10, +3, +2 = 25.5
Equaliser's Average Damage On A Critical Hit: 25.5 * 2 = 51
20 Rounds Later: ( 25.5 * 18 ) + 51 = 510

Grand Total: 2512.5
Average Damage per Round: 2512.5 / 20 = 125.625

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Foebane +5 & Crom Faeyr +5:
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80 Attacks in 20 Rounds. 60 will be Foebane, 20 will be Crom Faeyr. Out of 60 potential hits, Foebane will miss 3 times and score 3 critical hits. Crom Faeyr will miss once and score one critical hit.

Foebane's Average Damage On A Normal Hit: 2d4 +5, +14, +3, +2, +1d4 = 31.5
Foebane's Average Damage On A Critical Hit: ( ( 31.5 - 2.5 ) * 2 ) + 2.5 = 60.5
20 Rounds Later: ( 31.5 * 54 ) + ( 60.5 * 3 ) = 1882.5

Crom Faeyr's Average Damage On A Normal Hit: 2d4 +3, +14, +3, +2, +5 = 32
Crom Faeyr's Average Damage On A Critical Hit: ( ( 32 - 5 ) * 2 ) + 5 = 59
20 Rounds Later: ( 32 * 18 ) + 59 = 635

Grand Total: 2517.5
Average Damage per Round: 2517.5 / 20 = 125.875

It was a close fight, but Crom Faeyr prevailed. Equaliser was shamed to no end, despite all the advantages that was given to him. Alas... it was a bittersweet ending, for in the end, both were losers. Fair Lady Foebane rode off with Belm, who was not as enchanting as the rest, but a fast worker in more ways than one.

THE END?

[ 11-29-2002, 01:42 AM: Message edited by: Dundee Slaytern ]

[Alson]

First, Dundee, thank you for doing the tests.
I appreciate the work. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Now, to the comments. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Minor ToB Item Spoilers
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Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern: Any other alignment? Get this... +12 damage to both hands.

More points to the Eqalizer, then. [img]tongue.gif[/img]
I'm surprised i did not noticed that in my testing...

Fear not though. The Equaliser is still found to be lacking in the end. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Now, is it? Read on.

Foebane +5 and Equaliser +3: -------- Equaliser's maximum average potential base physical damage: (1+8) / 2 = 4.5 Equaliser's bonus against Chaotic Good, Chaotic Evil, Lawful Good and Lawful Evil: +12 damage STR: 22 = +10 damage Let us assume 60 rounds worth of attacks. Let us assume THACO is not an issue. That will be 240 hits. 5% will be Critical Misses, 5% will be Critical Hits. 160 will be Foebane(8 CM, 8 CH), 80 will be Equaliser(4 CM, 4 CH). Foebane's Normal Hit: 16 + 12 + 10 + 2 + 3 + 2.5 = 45.5 Foebane's Critical Hit: 88.5 Total Damage 160 Swings Later: ( 45.5 * 144 ) + ( 88.5 * 8 ) = 7260 Equaliser's Normal Hit: 4.5 + 12 + 10 + 2 + 3 = 31.5 Equaliser's Critical Hit: 63 Total Damage 80 Swings Later: ( 31.5 * 72 ) + ( 63 * 4 ) = 2520 Grand Total: 7260 + 2520 = 9780 Average Damage Per Round: 9780 / 60 = 163 Neutral Good, Neutral Evil: 147 Chaotic Neutral, Lawful Neutral: 131 True Neutral: 115 In conclusion, the Equaliser suffers the same fate as the Mace of Disruption. Useful only under certain circumstances.

True.
But! [img]tongue.gif[/img]
Don't forget this, Dundee - ~95% of the monsters are Evil.
And the majority of the Evil monsters are Chaotic or Lawful.
When fighting Chaotic/Lawful Evil opponents, the Equalizer is a better off hand weapon than Crom or Belm. You just proved it.
The Equalizer is just not as bad as we thought. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Dundee Slaytern]

Originally posted by Alson: First, Dundee, thank you for doing the tests. I appreciate the work. [img]smile.gif[/img]

No problem.

Minor ToB Item Spoilers * * * * * More points to the Eqalizer, then. [img]tongue.gif[/img] I'm surprised i did not noticed that in my testing...

I used Kensais because of their Kai ability, and I managed to duplicate the results over and over again, much to my amazement.

Don't forget this, Dundee - ~95% of the monsters are Evil. And the majority of the Evil monsters are Chaotic or Lawful. When fighting Chaotic/Lawful Evil opponents, the Equalizer is a better off hand weapon than Crom or Belm. You just proved it. The Equalizer is just not as bad as we thought. [img]smile.gif[/img]

/me ponders

I suppose I should give it a shot. I was thinking though, this also gives a lot of implications to backstabbing Assassin->Fighters. An additional 84 damage is not to be sniffed at, especially on a critical( 168 damage).

What is the most damaging backstabbable one-handed weapon in terms of physical damage? I think Jim and I have to revisit on what is the single most damaging strike possible in the game.

[Alson]

Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern: I used Kensais because of their Kai ability, and I managed to duplicate the results over and over again, much to my amazement.

Using Kensais is a good idea.
I will remember this the next time i test something like this.
I trust that you did not forget to subtract their bonuses, right?

/me ponders I suppose I should give it a shot.

Do i hear a tone of agreement in your voice, Mr. Slaytern? [img]tongue.gif[/img]

I was thinking though, this also gives a lot of implications to backstabbing Assassin->Fighters. An additional 84 damage is not to be sniffed at, especially on a critical( 168 damage). What is the most damaging backstabbable one-handed weapon in terms of physical damage? I think Jim and I have to revisit on what is the single most damaging strike possible in the game.

Pure physical damage?
I think it's a tie between Hindo's Doom +4 (1D10 +4) and Angurvadal +5 (1D8 +5) - both have a 9.5 average, but Angurvadal +5 will also cause fire damage that, unfortunately, will not be multiplied.
So i think he have a winner. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 11-24-2002, 02:05 PM: Message edited by: Alson ]

[Dundee Slaytern]

Originally posted by Alson: Using Kensais is a good idea. I will remember this the next time i test something like this. I trust that you did not forget to subtract their bonuses, right?

Alson, I was only testing out the Equaliser's bonuses. The Kensai's bonuses remain constant, so I simply swap the Equaliser in the off-hand and put a normal longsword( which also happens to be the Equaliser's minimum base damage as verified during the tests) there.

With Equaliser - Without Equaliser = Equaliser's Bonuses

Do i hear a tone of agreement in your voice, Mr. Slaytern? [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Yes. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Pure physical damage? I think it's a tie between Hindo's Doom +4 (1D10 +4) and Angurvadal +5 (1D8 +5) - both have a 9.5 average, but Angurvadal +5 will also cause fire damage that, unfortunately, will not be multiplied. So i think he have a winner. [img]smile.gif[/img]

I guess I can calculate it tomorrow, while I wait for the scripts to compile. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[The Cavalier]

My character uses a sword and shield style of fighting. So, would the Equaliser be any good in just one hand?

[Jim]

Nice work boys. I've not had time to scrutinise every line of this thread, I'll try and take a closer look at it tomorrow. The point I just quickly want to make is this:

Dundee, you play on insane difficulty. When you attack a party member, the damage is also doubled. Is it possible that when you deduced the equilisers bonus damage values, you left it on insane? That would explain why these damage values are exactly double what they should be.....?

[Dundee Slaytern]

Originally posted by Jim: Nice work boys. I've not had time to scrutinise every line of this thread, I'll try and take a closer look at it tomorrow. The point I just quickly want to make is this: Dundee, you play on insane difficulty. When you attack a party member, the damage is also doubled. Is it possible that when you deduced the equilisers bonus damage values, you left it on insane? That would explain why these damage values are exactly double what they should be.....?

Great Scots! Jim does it again.

Now I understand why my criticals were 3 digits... ...

Sorry Alson, but... this means the Equaliser is once again... sub-par. Since it needs a +8 bonus to match the other combinations, and +6 is its' maximum... ...

[Alson]

Originally posted by Jim: Dundee, you play on insane difficulty. When you attack a party member, the damage is also doubled. Is it possible that when you deduced the equilisers bonus damage values, you left it on insane? That would explain why these damage values are exactly double what they should be.....?

Damn you Jim! Damn you! [img]graemlins/crying.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img]

But i will not give up!
I will NOT submit!! [img]graemlins/evillaughter1.gif[/img]
MWAHAHAHAHA!!! [img]graemlins/evillaughter2.gif[/img]

Hear me, then:

Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern: Minor ToB Item Spoilers ~ ~ ~ ~ [snip] Foebane +5 and Crom Faeyr +5: -------- Foebane's maximum average potential base physical damage: ((7+13)/2)+6 = 16 Larloch's Minor Drain average damage: (1+4)/2 = 2.5 Crom Faeyr's maximum average potential base physical damage: ((5+11)/2)+3 = 11 Electrical Damage: 5

Hmmm? 11 physical damage? I think you added another +3 bonus to Crom.
Crom Faeyr's physical damage is 2D4+3 - which is ((5+11)/2), not ((5+11)/2)+3.
Ergo, Crom's average physical damage is 8, not 11.

Foebane's maximum average potential base physical damage: ((7+13)/2)+6 = 16

But that's not fair.
Foebane +5 is 2D4+5, which is ((7+13)/2) = 10. The +6 is only legitimate versus several kinds of monsters - they are hardly the majority.
Of course, you can say that about the Equalizer's bonuses, too - but they cover a much larger range of monsters.

Giving that +6 bonus to Foebane gives an immense advantage to the Belm, obviously.

Thus my verdict?

The jury will want to reconsider, due to recent finding. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Cheers. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Dundee Slaytern]

Originally posted by Alson: Damn you Jim! Damn you! [img]graemlins/crying.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img]

What I find amusing is that halfway during our debates, Jim will enter and announce new facts that render both of us wrong. [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]

Hmmm? 11 physical damage? I think you added another +3 bonus to Crom. Crom Faeyr's physical damage is 2D4+3 - which is ((5+11)/2), not ((5+11)/2)+3. Ergo, Crom's average physical damage is 8, not 11.

My bad. I have corrected the calculations and guess what? It still won. [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]

But that's not fair. Foebane +5 is 2D4+5, which is ((7+13)/2) = 10. The +6 is only legitimate versus several kinds of monsters - they are hardly the majority. Of course, you can say that about the Equalizer's bonuses, too - but they cover a much larger range of monsters. Giving that +6 bonus to Foebane gives an immense advantage to the Belm, obviously.

How is it not fair? Foebane remained constant throughout all three combinations. If you ask me to remove the +6 damage from all three, the average damage will still balance out, and the Equaliser will be made to look even worse.

The jury will want to reconsider, due to recent finding. [img]tongue.gif[/img] Cheers. [img]smile.gif[/img]

The jury will now be horrified. Cheers. [img]smile.gif[/img]