The world is pretty sucky these days

[Cloudbringer]

Sorry TL, but it's a rather happy time of the year for many of us and sitting around debating what's WRONG with the world isn't one of the passtimes I'm fond of on a daily basis, nevermind at Christmas time, so I apologize, but while I understand your sentiment, I'm not really into the discussion per se. [img]smile.gif[/img]

As for it not being a heavily posted thread- hey wait a while, a lot of people aren't online much because of traveling and the holidays. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Timber Loftis]

Fair enough, Cloudy. I was travelling on Christmas and (it being the end of my vacation) it was the first time I'd looked at a newspaper in over a week. It was just very sad to see those articles as the Christmas Day headlines.

[Cloudbringer]

I completely understand, TL! *BIG HUG* [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Dreamer128]

Well.. misery doesn't take days off. But fortunatly, X-mas is the one day of the year in which people make a serieus effort to keep it at bay..

[Lord of Alcohol]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Not to doubt you, but you got a link to an article regarding the CIA torture of Taliban? Thanks if you do.

Here ya go Timber!

Posted on Thu, Dec. 26, 2002

Afghan prisoners tortured?
Intelligence sources say gloves are off in CIA interrogations
DANA PRIEST AND BARTON GELLMAN
Washington Post

Deep in the forbidden zone at the U.S.-occupied Bagram air base in Afghanistan, beyond the segregated clandestine military units, sits a cluster of metal shipping containers protected by a triple layer of concertina wire.

The containers hold the most valuable prizes in the war on terrorism -- captured al-Qaida operatives and Taliban commanders.

Those who refuse to cooperate inside this secret CIA interrogation center are sometimes kept standing or kneeling for hours, in black hoods or spray-painted goggles, according to intelligence specialists familiar with CIA interrogation methods.

At times they are held in awkward, painful positions and deprived of sleep with a 24-hour bombardment of lights -- subject to what is known as "stress and duress" techniques.

Those who cooperate are rewarded with creature comforts, interrogators whose methods include feigned friendship, respect, cultural sensitivity and, in some cases, money. Some who do not cooperate are turned over to non-U.S. intelligence services whose practice of torture has been documented by the U.S. government and human-rights organizations.

In the multifaceted global war on terrorism waged by the Bush administration, one of the most opaque -- yet vital -- fronts is the detention and interrogation of captured terrorism suspects.

U.S. officials have said little publicly about the captives' names, numbers or whereabouts, and virtually nothing about interrogation methods. But interviews with several former intelligence officials and 10 current U.S. national security officials -- including several people who witnessed the handling of prisoners -- provide insight into how the U.S. government is prosecuting this part of the war.

The picture that emerges is of a brass-knuckled quest for information, often in concert with allies of dubious human-rights reputation, in which the traditional lines between right and wrong, legal and inhumane, are evolving and blurred.

While the U.S. government publicly denounces the use of torture, each of the current national security officials interviewed defended the use of violence against captives as just and necessary. They expressed confidence that the American public would back their view. The CIA, which has primary responsibility for interrogations, declined to comment.

"If you don't violate someone's human rights some of the time, you probably aren't doing your job," said one official who has supervised the capture and transfer of accused terrorists. "I don't think we want to be promoting a view of zero tolerance on this. That was the whole problem for a long time with the CIA.."

The off-limits patch of ground at Bagram is one of a number of secret detention centers overseas where the CIA undertakes or manages the interrogation of suspected terrorists and where U.S. due process does not apply, according to several U.S. and European national security officials. Another is Diego Garcia, an island in the Indian Ocean that the United States leases from Britain.

U.S. officials oversee most of the interrogations, especially those of the most-senior captives.

In some cases, CIA officers question captives through interpreters. In others, the intelligence agency undertakes a "false flag" operation using fake decor and disguises meant to deceive a captive into thinking he is imprisoned in a country with a reputation for brutality, when, in reality, he is still in CIA hands.

Sometimes, female officers conduct interrogations, a psychologically jarring experience for men reared in a conservative Muslim culture where women are never in control.

In other cases, usually involving lower-level captives, the CIA hands them to foreign intelligence services -- notably those of Jordan, Egypt and Morocco -- with a list of questions the agency wants answered. These "extraordinary renditions" are done without resort to legal process and usually involve countries with security services known for using brutal means.

According to U.S. officials, nearly 3,000 suspected al-Qaida members and their supporters have been detained worldwide since Sept. 11, 2001. About 625 are at the U.S. military's confinement facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. Some officials estimated that fewer than 100 captives have been rendered to third countries. Thousands have been arrested and held with U.S. assistance in countries known for brutal treatment of prisoners, the officials said

At a Sept. 26 joint hearing of the House and Senate intelligence committees, Cofer Black, then head of the CIA Counterterrorist Center, spoke cryptically about the agency's new forms of "operational flexibility" in dealing with suspected terrorists. "This is a very highly classified area, but I have to say that all you need to know: There was a before 9/11, and there was an after 9/11," Black said. "After 9/11 the gloves come off."

According to one official who has been directly involved in putting captives into foreign hands, the understanding is, "We don't kick the (expletive) out of them. We send them to other countries so they can kick the (expletive) out of them." Some countries are known to use mind-altering drugs such as sodium pentathol, said other officials involved in the process.

Abu Zubaydah, who is believed to be the most important al-Qaida member in detention, was shot in the groin during his apprehension in Pakistan in March. National security officials suggested that Zubaydah's painkillers were used selectively in the beginning of his captivity. He is now said to be cooperating, and his information has led to the apprehension of other al-Qaida members.

U.S. National Security Council spokesman Sean McCormack declined to comment earlier this week on CIA or intelligence-related matters. But, he said: "The United States is treating enemy combatants in U.S. government control, wherever held, humanely and in a manner consistent with the principles of the Third Geneva Convention of 1949."

The convention outlined the standards for treatment of prisoners of war. Suspected terrorists in CIA hands have not been accorded POW status.

Other U.S. government officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, acknowledged that interrogators deprive some captives of sleep, a practice with ambiguous status in international law.

The U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights, the authoritative interpreter of the international Convention Against Torture, has ruled that lengthy interrogation may incidentally and legitimately cost a prisoner sleep. But when employed for the purpose of breaking a prisoner's will, sleep deprivation "may in some cases constitute torture."

The State Department's annual human-rights report routinely denounces sleep deprivation as an interrogation method. In its 2001 report on Turkey, Israel and Jordan, all U.S. allies, the department listed sleep deprivation among often-used alleged torture techniques.

U.S. officials who defend the hand-overs say the prisoners are sent to these third countries not because of their coercive questioning techniques, but because of their cultural affinity with the captives.

Besides being illegal, they said, torture produces unreliable information from people who are desperate to stop the pain. They look to foreign allies more because their intelligence services can develop a culture of intimacy that Americans cannot. They may use interrogators who speak the captive's Arabic dialect and often use the prospects of shame and the reputation of the captive's family to prod the captive into talking.

[Timber Loftis]

Thanks so very much, LoA. Some things just warm my heart, y'know.

I support the Geneva Conventions - but only against other countries who are abiding signatories thereto. When the other side plays dirty - and make no mistake, everything about terrorism is dirty and cowardly - then we should play dirty, too. IMHO, they declared a no-holds-barred cage match, not us.

I'm so glad to see at least a little Cheer in my holiday. Cheers to all. [img]graemlins/cheers.gif[/img]

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: I'm so glad to see at least a little Cheer in my holiday. Cheers to all. [img]graemlins/cheers.gif[/img]

Good to see the kind of things that bring you cheer then bro. Most interesting.

[ 12-28-2002, 01:51 AM: Message edited by: The Hierophant ]

[John D Harris]

TL,
What is this dividene(sp? due to pertakeing of holiday libations) Crap!! Those that have money get dividends Bravo Serria!!! Those that invest in dividend paying stocks get dividends! There is NO other explaination! No excuses! None!!!
I'm willing to bet you make in 5 to 6 months what my wife and I make in a year, but We get dividends! Why because we invested in dividend paying stocks! NO other reason! Why should We be double taxed because we had the brains to invest in stocks that pay dividends HUH? If anyone invests in stocks that don't pay dividends then they reap what what they sow. Get over it life is hard mean and WILL rip your face off and perform nasty bodily functions in the hole then sew your face back on SO you will taste it for the rest of YOUR life! Optimon (sp? due to reason given earlier) words "YOUR Life". I'm sick and tired of hearing people piss & moun, because sombody else made a differant choice in life then them. A choice that has differant rewards and risks, then the choices made by others, and being pentlized for it! If you want to level the playing field then level the field for everybody AND quit the piss'n & moun'n. Those that have money to spend WILL spend IT those that don't won't. Fact, case closed, life/ reality finds in favor of the defense.

[arion windrider]

kinda sucks when we cant all get along... somebody mad at somebody and wanting to goto war... it sucks...

[Timber Loftis]

Despite your clear angst towards me, Bravo to you John D. Harris for investing wisely. However, I would suspect that amongst middle class Americans you are the exception to the rule. My point is not that the idea is wholely bad, but that it won't work to serve the named goal (economic stimulus) very much - in fact, I think it will only serve, like many other current republican-issued economic stimulus plans, to widen the money gap more.

BTW, if you pay taxes on your dividends, you are not taxed twice. You only pay taxes on what you make. True, the corp itself gets taxed. But, you only get taxed on your income (dividends) once.