Cleave and Greater Cleave with Bows?

[ScottG]

I've been thinking about advanced leveling with an Arcane Archer and possible attack scenarios and was wondering if Cleave and Greater Cleave work within melee range while utilizing a bow? The book's description of Cleave seems to suggest that it works, stating "If a character with this feat kills an opponent in melee combat, he gets a free attack against any opponent who is within melee range." Moreover, do the attacks stack if it does work, and how? How does Greater Cleave factor in? Greater Cleaves description is: "Same as Cleave feat, except that there is no limit to the number of additional attacks that the character may make after killing one opponent.".

For instance the AA has the "hail or arrows" feature that allows attacking all creatures within range at the same time, (in this case all within melee range). Lets say you have 5 attacks that round and there are 6 opponents. 5 opponents are relativly weak and are killed with the first attack while the 6th opponent is a "boss" type and has massive quantities of hit points (and of course is barely scratched). Assuming the "Cleaves" work with a bow, what happens with additional attacks with Cleave alone, and what happens when you have Greater Cleave? (Of course what I'm looking for is a BUNCH of additional attacks that round against the "boss" opponent.)

[Gabrielles blades]

duno if it works with a bow

but cleave works like this:
you kill monster X, when swing at monster Y within melee range.

If you have great cleave, then if you happen to kill monster Y with that one swing from the cleaving of X, then you will also swing at Z and so on untill you have not killed a monster with the cleave hit.


So in other words, greave cleave is only really good for kiling a lot of low hit point opponents since your unlikely to kill off anything hard with 1 swing.

[SpiritWarrior]

No it does not work with a bow. The feats description reads 'An extra attack on an opponent within melee weapon range. The bow is a ranged weapon and It's a melee feat and requires Strength to use rather than Dex.

[ 10-31-2003, 01:11 AM: Message edited by: SpiritWarrior ]

[robertthebard]

Originally posted by Gabrielles blades: duno if it works with a bow but cleave works like this: you kill monster X, when swing at monster Y within melee range. If you have great cleave, then if you happen to kill monster Y with that one swing from the cleaving of X, then you will also swing at Z and so on untill you have not killed a monster with the cleave hit. So in other words, greave cleave is only really good for kiling a lot of low hit point opponents since your unlikely to kill off anything hard with 1 swing.

That's mostly true, except in practice. I've seen great cleave attempts on the first attack of a round, and if you are dual wielding, man, you can do some nice dmg, since there are no penalties on the attempt. Also, int factors into the feat as well, since you cant' take it without a 13 int. It is extremely possible to get a lot of attacks out of a great cleave, if you position yourself to attack a weaker creature, and attempt on the stronger, then attack another weaker, etc. Attacks of oppurtunity, that kill, also lead to a cleave, or great cleave attack, so stand wihtin striking range of spell casters, and hope.

[ScottG]

actually cleave and great cleave require 13 in str., not int..

I read the cleave description as RANGE being modified by "melee weapon". In other words it has nothing to do with melee weapons other than the fact that the attack must be within the attack range of a melee weapon, not that you need a melee weapon for the chance of a cleave attack. (Of course that doesn't mean that it will work with a bow or not.) I'll test it out today on a human fighter with a bow, (just the cleave part).

Just finished, even with Point Blank feat bows do not get cleave attacks, oh well...

[ 10-31-2003, 02:46 PM: Message edited by: ScottG ]

[SpiritWarrior]

The description reads that it can only be achieved with a melee weapon ('within range of any melee weapon') at least that is how I would interpret it. No?

[ScottG]

not really, go back up and read the quote that I pulled from the book. (though its moot now, your conclusion was correct.)

First you need to kill an opponent "in melee combat". It doesnt' say that you need to use a melee weapon to be "in melee combat". Moreover the feat PointBlank Shot essentially does this for bows (i.e. making a bow usable in melee combat). (and this is why, when I did my testing, I tried it with and without pointblank shot.)

Second criteria is that you have another opponent to attack that is "within melee range". Melee range really is only talking about range, NOT about weapon use.

So I guess the presupposition by the authors of the description here is that melee combat only includes combat with melee weapons. (just another description that could have used a bit more detail to avoid confusion..)

Actually the phrase melee combat is redundant; melee is by definition combatative within its primary use of the word. Melee however typically describes hand-to-hand fighting or is synonomous with the word Brawl (which is nothing more than noisy fighting or quarreling).

(yeah, I know..more than you ever wanted to contemplate about word useage...)

[SpiritWarrior]

Thing is they are talking in D&D terms, and in D&D terms a bow would never be regarded as a melee weapon regardless of how close you were to your opponent. This is why they don't go into detail about it I think. Anyways, we've safely established by now that it don't work .