Kids, don't cross the line...

[Aerich]

Good show, Sir K, I agree. At least taking away the PS2 is probably more effective than spanking. Although I do prefer to replace "punishment" with the euphemistic and more politically correct "negative reinforcement." [img]smile.gif[/img]

Are you sure your Basic Sergeant didn't use more profanity than that? If not, I must say he was remarkably restrained... [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Thoran]

Sigh... shades of the spanking thread. Wanna bet that kid has never been spanked in his life. I agree it's bad parenting at work... when the kid was 3 and grabbed that other kids toy his parents probably ignored it or went "now little Timmy, you know that's not nice" but did nothing about it.

Now here people are saying that punishing the kid by selling his playstation will just make it worse? I think not. The kid has ZERO respect for his parents, it's about time they grew a backbone. It'll be tough since the kid is not used to it, but in the long run he'll THANK them for doing it (assuming they don't turn back into the waffleing pushovers they must've been before).

Keep your wine in a cool place until you're ready to drink it. For whites chill them for an hour or two before drinking but don't store them under refridgeration (this will damage the wine)!

Most modern wines aren't meant to be kept for years (they ship them near maturity)... so drink em!

We've got liquor, wine, and beer in our home and have never had a problem with our boys (and one is 13). I expect that around 16 he'll start experimenting, but that's about the proper age for that sort of thing, and it certainly won't take the form of a destructive party.

[Thoran]

Originally posted by Aerich: Good show, Sir K, I agree. At least taking away the PS2 is probably more effective than spanking. Although I do prefer to replace "punishment" with the euphemistic and more politically correct "negative reinforcement." [img]smile.gif[/img] Are you sure your Basic Sergeant didn't use more profanity than that? If not, I must say he was remarkably restrained... [img]smile.gif[/img]

punishment and negative reinforcement are two different things.

"Punishment" modifies an undesireable behavior by adding a negative to the target's environment (a spank on the behind when the child tries to touch the stove).

"Negative reinforcement" reinforces a positive behavior by removing something the target views as negative. (removing a curfew and letting the child stay out later when he gets good grades)

BTW... taking away the kids playstation would be more accurately classified as "extinction", modifying an undesireable behavior by removing something positive from the targets environment.

Since I did the other three, the fourth behavioral modification term is "Positive Reinforcement", or reinforcing a positive behavior by adding something positive to the targets environment. (give the kid a playstation for getting good grades)

[ 06-28-2004, 12:13 PM: Message edited by: Thoran ]

[Dron_Cah]

Originally posted by Thoran: Sigh... shades of the spanking thread. Wanna bet that kid has never been spanked in his life. I agree it's bad parenting at work... when the kid was 3 and grabbed that other kids toy his parents probably ignored it or went "now little Timmy, you know that's not nice" but did nothing about it. Now here people are saying that punishing the kid by selling his playstation will just make it worse? I think not. The kid has ZERO respect for his parents, it's about time they grew a backbone. It'll be tough since the kid is not used to it, but in the long run he'll THANK them for doing it (assuming they don't turn back into the waffleing pushovers they must've been before). Keep your wine in a cool place until you're ready to drink it. For whites chill them for an hour or two before drinking but don't store them under refridgeration (this will damage the wine)! Most modern wines aren't meant to be kept for years (they ship them near maturity)... so drink em! We've got liquor, wine, and beer in our home and have never had a problem with our boys (and one is 13). I expect that around 16 he'll start experimenting, but that's about the proper age for that sort of thing, and it certainly won't take the form of a destructive party.

You should hope not, anyways! [img]tongue.gif[/img] Just make sure your kids dont meet Johnny! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Thoran]

Originally posted by Dron_Cah: You should hope not, anyways! [img]tongue.gif[/img] Just make sure your kids dont meet Johnny! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[img]smile.gif[/img] Our oldest is a straight laced kid, I've already told him that if he has the urge to try beer or wine I'll let him... he's not interested.

Our 9 year old on the other hand... I'll be watching him closely when he hits 13, wonderful boy but he's a tester.

[Melusine]

Originally posted by Thoran: Sigh... shades of the spanking thread. Wanna bet that kid has never been spanked in his life. I agree it's bad parenting at work... when the kid was 3 and grabbed that other kids toy his parents probably ignored it or went "now little Timmy, you know that's not nice" but did nothing about it.

I think the question whether this kid has ever been spanked has about zero relevance to this incident. I wasn't spanked as a child (as I said in the other thread, maybe about 4 times in my life, and never as a true punishment) and I would never pull that kind of stunt on my parents. Now I realise that my personal experience has about zero relevance as well because doubtless there are children who are not spanked and DO get out of hand in a similar way to this boy. But I'm sure the same goes for children that ARE spanked on a regular basis. I don't really see why the issue HAD to be brought up at all, so I'll just leave it at that.
I do think *something* must have gone wrong parenting-wise somewhere along the line, because most children I know (and myself as a kid) would never have dreamed of doing what this brat did.

I don't think the punishment as such is bad, on the contrary. I think it's ridiculous the time a lot of children are allowed to sit and gawk at stupid computer games and I think in this particular case it's very appropriate punishment to take away his console. However I find the tone of the auction extremely petty and vindictive. It would have been much more impressive as a punishment in my eyes if they had just told the kid "right, that's it, we're selling your PS2, hope you learn something from the experience" [img]tongue.gif[/img] and left out the big whining rant on Ebay.

That is, if we take this auction page seriously. Otherwise I've just wasted another ten minutes of my life debating an issue that doesn't even exist. [img]tongue.gif[/img]
How typical...

[ 06-28-2004, 12:43 PM: Message edited by: Melusine ]

[Thoran]

Originally posted by Melusine: I think the question whether this kid has ever been spanked has about zero relevance to this incident. I wasn't spanked as a child (as I said in the other thread, maybe about 4 times in my life, and never as a true punishment) and I would never pull that kind of stunt on my parents. Now I realise that my personal experience has about zero relevance as well because doubtless there are children who are not spanked and DO get out of hand in a similar way to this boy. But I'm sure the same goes for children that ARE spanked on a regular basis. I don't really see why the issue HAD to be brought up at all, so I'll just leave it at that. I do think *something* must have gone wrong parenting-wise somewhere along the line, because most children I know (and myself as a kid) would never have dreamed of doing what this brat did. I don't think the punishment as such is bad, on the contrary. I think it's ridiculous the time a lot of children are allowed to sit and gawk at stupid computer games and I think in this particular case it's very appropriate punishment to take away his console. However I find the tone of the auction extremely petty and vindictive. It would have been much more impressive as a punishment in my eyes if they had just told the kid "right, that's it, we're selling your PS2, hope you learn something from the experience" [img]tongue.gif[/img] and left out the big whining rant on Ebay. That is, if we take this auction page seriously. Otherwise I've just wasted another ten minutes of my life debating an issue that doesn't even exist. [img]tongue.gif[/img] How typical...

I beleive it's relevance lies in the anti-punishment point of view that surrounds the spanking thread and has reared it's ugly head in this one. For good or bad, spanking has been the typically referenced method of delivering punishment. Perhaps you'd be happeir if I'd used the broader term "punishment" altough that seems a quibble to me. So to clarify... in this context the comment that the kid had probably never been spanked was actually a comment about the likely lack of discipline in the youngsters life that would make him feel free to engage in such destructive behaviors without apparent fear of repurcussions.

[ 06-28-2004, 01:33 PM: Message edited by: Thoran ]

[Aerich]

Originally posted by Thoran:

punishment and negative reinforcement are two different things.

"Punishment" modifies an undesireable behavior by adding a negative to the target's environment (a spank on the behind when the child tries to touch the stove).

"Negative reinforcement" reinforces a positive behavior by removing something the target views as negative. (removing a curfew and letting the child stay out later when he gets good grades)

BTW... taking away the kids playstation would be more accurately classified as "extinction", modifying an undesireable behavior by removing something positive from the targets environment.

Since I did the other three, the fourth behavioral modification term is "Positive Reinforcement", or reinforcing a positive behavior by adding something positive to the targets environment. (give the kid a playstation for getting good grades)

Dang, I *knew* my foggy memory of undergrad psych was going to get me into trouble if I pretended to know what I was talking about! [img]smile.gif[/img]

Fact remains the kid was suitably punished/reprimanded for his actions. If his parents made him read their ebay statement (as they probably did), I'm sure he got the message.

I do agree, however, that the tone of it *might* lead to problems down the road, IF the kid stays immature. Too bad the problem couldn't have been nipped in the bud earlier (Uh-oh, does that belong in the cliche thread??).

[Sir Kenyth]

I also can't stress enough that the other kids your child hangs around with have a huge impact on their behavior! My son didn't decide to skip by himself! Almost all the big trouble he's been in has been with a "problem" child in the neighborhood. It may seem mean, but you have to chose your kids friends wisely. That means forbidding certain kids from coming around. The best way to control your childs environment and peers is by putting them in organized activities. Problem kids are rarely in any organized activity that costs their parents money. Remember, many times problem kids have problem parents. Sports, Boy Scouts, after school groups, church youth, etc. These are all good choices. Keep involved in your kids life. Get aquainted with other parents in the area. That way, you can trade off nights to take a group of kids to do something fun under adult supervision or have them over at your house. Don't leave kids alone for extended periods and keep them social and busy having good clean fun. You remember the old saying that idle hands are the devils playground. Good parenting means more than knowing how to punish your kids.

[Aerich]

Yep, Sir Kenyth, I strongly second your opinion that the trick is organized activities. My parents committed the time and money to keep me in two-three sports year round; soccer, baseball, karate, swimming, skating, ball hockey, etc. They also took me to the library whenever I wanted and limited my T.V. time to one show a day. I've also never owned a Playstation or Nintendo-type game system.

It paid off for my parents.