Shall we go back to the ice ages?

[Belle]

I apologize, I didn't mean all men, I live with Azred and he is so not like my manager at all. So to all men who it doesn't appply, then I am sorry, but not for how I feel. And it is not so much the gay thing, they can be anyway they want, I dont' really care. People love who they love and that is my only view point on that. It is the fact that when I started to tell him my opinions I got cut off and the discussion was over. I still feel that women are looked at different when they do the same things that men do. Take for example, sleeping with multiple people, men do it, they are "the man" and women do it they are whores or nasty women. But that is another story. Thank you cloudbringer, I appreciate your words of encouragement and yes I do feel better after ranting to Azred for at least two hours and finally on here. I only hope Azred has ears
left after that much ranting and raving from me.
Belle (half of a much happier Azred)

[Cloudbringer]

Originally posted by Belle: I apologize, I didn't mean all men, I live with Azred and he is so not like my manager at all. So to all men who it doesn't appply, then I am sorry, but not for how I feel. And it is not so much the gay thing, they can be anyway they want, I dont' really care. People love who they love and that is my only view point on that. It is the fact that when I started to tell him my opinions I got cut off and the discussion was over. I still feel that women are looked at different when they do the same things that men do. Take for example, sleeping with multiple people, men do it, they are "the man" and women do it they are whores or nasty women. But that is another story. Thank you cloudbringer, I appreciate your words of encouragement and yes I do feel better after ranting to Azred for at least two hours and finally on here. I only hope Azred has ears left after that much ranting and raving from me. Belle (half of a much happier Azred)

Aww Belle, you're most welcome and I really do hope it helps! It really can help you feel better and get the worst of it out of your system! Heck, we created a rant zone at The Oasis just because sometimes a person needs to let off steam!

Oh my! LOL, I bet Azred's heard it all and then some! I SOOOOOO understand! My poor Nachtrafe has listened to me carry for ages about one thing or another that bothered me on more than one occasion! And you're right, there are men out there who don't play headgames or harbor ill will toward women in the workplace or anywhere else. Sure sounds like we have a pair! [img]smile.gif[/img]

[AzRaeL StoRmBlaDe]

I don't think its neccesarily woman hating probably more mangers just being jerks like they usually are. My manager now is cool, but the one I had before was fake and totally backstabbing. Its just the luck of the draw I guess, but its ridiculous that people like that are put into position of authority, is what I personally feel the main problem is.

[Stormymystic]

Perhaps women should become sexist pigs and rule the world?

seriously though, I know alot of men like that, and unfortunatly, that is the way the were raised, my husband is one of them , e used to say that ALL women should be bearfoot and pregnant i front of the stove making supper, he has kinda gotten out of that now, but alot of men do not understand that women are the reason they are here in the first place

[Thoran]

Originally posted by Stormymystic: alot of men do not understand that women are the reason they are here in the first place

That statement is just as true the other way around. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Originally posted by Reeka: I could tell you some horror stories. Unfortunately, too many women are afraid to speak up for fear that they will lose their jobs that they desperately need and so they tolerate it.

We all tolerate much that we'd rather not... for the sake of our families or our future we put up with all kinds of BS at work and school. Our young college men are assaulted with constant anti-male propeganda, quite often government financed and propegated by teachers who are in a position to ruin their lives. Women Studies "programs" teach hate of all things male on one hand while creating "anti-hate" Speach Codes that eliminate the opportunity for rebuttal on the other.

Belle I think we all knew what you meant... and I think most of us have had bad managers at one time or another, it can make you want to scream. The thing to keep in mind regarding sexism in the workplace is that as more women occupy positions of authority we're getting more complaints about some of them being just as sexist as the sexist guys out there. IMO some people have no business being in positions of authority, be they male or female. When I was in highschool I was propositioned by two older women that were in positions of authority over me... but of course guys have been trained to think of that as flattering instead of threatening so I never thought anything of it (even though in both cases it'd have been rape by todays standards if I'd have complied).

It's sad to say but I tend to think it's human nature for those in power to exploit those without it... men or women.

[harleyquinn]

Originally posted by Thoran: We all tolerate much that we'd rather not... for the sake of our families or our future we put up with all kinds of BS at work and school. Our young college men are assaulted with constant anti-male propeganda, quite often government financed and propegated by teachers who are in a position to ruin their lives. Women Studies "programs" teach hate of all things male on one hand while creating "anti-hate" Speach Codes that eliminate the opportunity for rebuttal on the other.

Well, I took woman studies classes in college, and there was nothing in those classes that taught us to hate men at all. If that's the impression you got, than either there was a bad teacher or the person that told you that had their own prejudices to begin with and was able to turn what was taught into learning to "hate men" as you put it.
As to the women earning less than men, every study I've ever seen shows us earning less, so if you've seen different, please let me know where, if you can remember. Speaking as a woman, I know I'd be making about $10-15K more if I was male, I know this by seeing what all my male friends in the same positions are making compared to my salary. And, as a woman in her late 20s, it's difficult when I do need to find a job, because some horrid managers out there won't hire you (although they won't say it) because they think I'll leave when I have a kid. Yeah right, I spent all that time and money to become a computer programmer just to chuck it all when I have a family???
Not saying I don't have it easier than most, since I'm in a field where we're in high demand, just saying, there are some men (and even some women) in positions of authority out there who just don't think women are as capable and smart as men. I have men like that in the group I work in now. However, his manager is aware of this issue, and has been helpful in fixing it. Still, when working with him, he talks to me as if I'm a co-op instead of a programmer with 7+ years experience.

Prime example of why sex should be kept out of the business place, along with religion and politics...work is where BUSINESS should be done not friend making, or socializing....hehe [img]smile.gif[/img] just my [img]graemlins/twocents.gif[/img]

[Thoran]

Originally posted by harleyquinn: quote: Originally posted by Thoran: We all tolerate much that we'd rather not... for the sake of our families or our future we put up with all kinds of BS at work and school. Our young college men are assaulted with constant anti-male propeganda, quite often government financed and propegated by teachers who are in a position to ruin their lives. Women Studies "programs" teach hate of all things male on one hand while creating "anti-hate" Speach Codes that eliminate the opportunity for rebuttal on the other.

Well, I took woman studies classes in college, and there was nothing in those classes that taught us to hate men at all. If that's the impression you got, than either there was a bad teacher or the person that told you that had their own prejudices to begin with and was able to turn what was taught into learning to "hate men" as you put it.
As to the women earning less than men, every study I've ever seen shows us earning less, so if you've seen different, please let me know where, if you can remember.
[/QUOTE]Hmm... let me think...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,45917,00.html
http://www.nationalreview.com/commen...we012802.shtml
http://www.nationalreview.com/commen...an040301.shtml
http://www.stls.frb.org/publications...c-backgnd.html
http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/hart090900.asp

I could probably come up with a few more but these will keep you busy for a while.

For an interesting discussion of Womens studies programs I suggest the Independant Womens Forum. These articles are a starting point:

http://www.iwf.org/pubs/exfemina/April2002i.shtml
http://www.glennjsacks.com/popular_womens_studies.htm
http://www.cnsnews.com/Culture/archi...20020515a.html
http://www.pacificresearch.org/pub/c..._01-12-12.html

I would guess that not ALL W.S. classes are problematic, but I would also suspect that most would never even associate the materials taught in such classes with sexism, because one of the things often taught is that only men ("the Patriarchy") can be sexist.

Originally posted by harleyquinn: Speaking as a woman, I know I'd be making about $10-15K more if I was male, I know this by seeing what all my male friends in the same positions are making compared to my salary. And, as a woman in her late 20s, it's difficult when I do need to find a job, because some horrid managers out there won't hire you (although they won't say it) because they think I'll leave when I have a kid. Yeah right, I spent all that time and money to become a computer programmer just to chuck it all when I have a family??? Not saying I don't have it easier than most, since I'm in a field where we're in high demand, just saying, there are some men (and even some women) in positions of authority out there who just don't think women are as capable and smart as men. I have men like that in the group I work in now. However, his manager is aware of this issue, and has been helpful in fixing it. Still, when working with him, he talks to me as if I'm a co-op instead of a programmer with 7+ years experience.

I also know women who think men aren't as capable... sexism is a two way street. My mother in law is a Dean at a university down south, earlier in her career (when she was a Director at a NYS University) she specifically excluded men from her team because she felt they were disruptive to the atmosphere... and she was quite unapolagetic about it. Back in the boom days for telecom I was involved in recruiting talent for my group (an engineering group of a F500 multinational) and I know for a fact that talented women and minorities were getting offers SIGNIFICANTLY higher than men with the same qualifications. I was told by a female grad at campus recruiting visit that she expected to get an offer that amounted to about 20% higher than the median starting for MSEE's... and I have no doubt she got it. I have no doubt that in these PC days for every female story of isolated discrimination (some guy thinks I can't do the job) there's an equivelant story of institutional discrimination against a guy (a less qualified woman was promoted over me to improve our manegerial diversity numbers).

[ 09-09-2003, 06:20 PM: Message edited by: Thoran ]

There is only one kind of person that doesn't think women have rights - the North American Major League Asswipe.

[Cloudbringer]

Originally posted by The Whackmiester: There is only one kind of person that doesn't think women have rights - the North American Major League Asswipe.

Whackmiester, try and clean up the language before you hit that send button. Use a * or $ or two.