Is Peace profitable? Is sickness prevention profitable?

Originally posted by Ar-Cunin: In Denmark we have free social and medical care (and free schools - something I've reaped the benefits of) - the cost is that we pay 50-60% taxes. But it is only a tiny minorety that would abolish the 'velfare state'. People see the benefits of a social network (incl. hospitals).

thats all fine and dandy, and Im sure Denmark is a fine place, but your whole country is only roughly twice the size of one of our smaller states (Massechustes) and your entire population is about that of the Baltimore/Washington corridor here in the states. Add to that that we are not a monarchy, and that our nation was founded on the idea of minimal taxation and limited governmental power, You are comparing apples and oranges.

Oh and our public school system is as free as yours (ie. it isnt really free, you pay for it with taxes)

[ 10-25-2002, 12:03 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by Timber Loftis: The state gets the $$$ to cover health care by SETTING LIMITS on what Doctors can charge. "UNFAIR!" you say - "I want my anaestesiologist to make $1.2 mil. a year 'cause he deserves it and his country club dues are really expensive!" Why not start this with your very own profession? Im thinking that the $180 an hour my divorce attourney charged for having his secretary print a half dozen forms was a bit expensive. I think $15 or $20 an hour should be plenty. Not to mention that those 6 forms took 3 weeks and $3000 to produce (it was an uncontested and amicable seperation, I shudder to think what would have happened if we had fought over things)

[/QUOTE]If I got to take home anywhere near my hourly rate, I'd keep my mouth shut, MagiK. Trust me, attorneys aren't having it easy these days. In fact, with this economy, fully 52% of the new attorneys hitting the street from Loyolla here in Chicago (I'm using it as an example, it's not my alma mater) went unemployed this year, as opposed to the more traditional 8%. I have friends who are really good, law review, guys who got laid off recently, after good report cards and bonuses last year. With our business, when the eonomy tanks so does our job. Even the folks who get creative during economic downturns by trying to sue anyone they can think of don't increase our business level - as the folks they sue just don't bother to pay us to defend and simply play hardball. Health care is a little different - people are always getting sick.

Plus, I'm a new attorney. Unless you go to BIGLAW (which about 3-4% of graduates do), then your beginning wages will barely keep you afloat, especially with student loans (I could own a NICE house for what loans I took out in law school). The same is true for doctors for the first few years, as well, and I don't disagree that residents and interns have it rough.

But, the insurance problem can certainly be applied to my profession as well.

Plus, we cut the bill ALL THE TIME. There is a very big impetus in this business to give the client their dollar value. Even if I spend $10K worth of time on a project (and I have), we only bill the client what my work was worth (most times). I've had $10K worth of time cut to $4K by the time the bill went out. I would sugget we face a cost/benefit analysis that the health care profession does not (because who can put a price on good health?).

[ 10-25-2002, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by Ar-Cunin: In Denmark we have free social and medical care (and free schools - something I've reaped the benefits of) - the cost is that we pay 50-60% taxes. But it is only a tiny minorety that would abolish the 'velfare state'. People see the benefits of a social network (incl. hospitals).

thats all fine and dandy, and Im sure Denmark is a fine place, but your whole country is only roughly twice the size of one of our smaller states (Massechustes) and your entire population is about that of the Baltimore/Washington corridor here in the states. Add to that that we are not a monarchy, and that our nation was founded on the idea of minimal taxation and limited governmental power, You are comparing apples and oranges.

Oh and our public school system is as free as yours (ie. it isnt really free, you pay for it with taxes)[/QUOTE]MagiK, by FREE SCHOOL, I think it includes College and professional school in Denmark. In England, they just began chargin tuition at colleges in 1997 (or thereabouts), and it has modern students pretty upset. The average bill in $$$, from what I've found - $3-4K per year. Makes you jealous, no?

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: MagiK, by FREE SCHOOL, I think it includes College and professional school in Denmark. In England, they just began chargin tuition at colleges in 1997 (or thereabouts), and it has modern students pretty upset. The average bill in $$$, from what I've found - $3-4K per year. Makes you jealous, no?

A bit [img]smile.gif[/img] but then I remember the things I would have to give up and am content with my country [img]smile.gif[/img]

It is also true they are talking about a population the size of one large city here in the US, and some plans don't scale upward so well.

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: If I got to take home anywhere near my hourly rate, I'd keep my mouth shut, MagiK. Trust me, attorneys aren't having it easy these days. In fact, with this economy, fully 52% of the new attorneys hitting the street from Loyolla here in Chicago (I'm using it as an example, it's not my alma mater) went unemployed this year, as opposed to the more traditional 8%. I have friends who are really good, law review, guys who got laid off recently, after good report cards and bonuses last year. With our business, when the eonomy tanks so does our job. Even the folks who get creative during economic downturns by trying to sue anyone they can think of don't increase our business level - as the folks they sue just don't bother to pay us to defend and simply play hardball. Health care is a little different - people are always getting sick. I didn't say you did [img]smile.gif[/img] But your situation is no different than a Doctors or a Construction worker or any other profession, except that You can charge a heck of a lot more than a construction worker can. And dont try to pretend that the Lawyers didn't plan it that way. Why else do we have 3000 laws all about the same issue? Its a classic tactic used by nearly every profession. Make the rules arcane and mysterious so that you can charge an arm and a leg for it. If you glut the market with Lawyers your ability to find jobs will shrink and how much you can charge will decline. Supply and demand. having the government set a flat rate is not the answer. Plus, I'm a new attorney. Unless you go to BIGLAW (which about 3-4% of graduates do), then your beginning wages will barely keep you afloat, especially with student loans (I could own a NICE house for what loans I took out in law school). The same is true for doctors for the first few years, as well, and I don't disagree that residents and interns have it rough. But, the insurance problem can certainly be applied to my profession as well. Plus, we cut the bill ALL THE TIME. There is a very big impetus in this business to give the client their dollar value. Even if I spend $10K worth of time on a project (and I have), we only bill the client what my work was worth (most times). I've had $10K worth of time cut to $4K by the time the bill went out. I would sugget we face a cost/benefit analysis that the health care profession does not (because who can put a price on good health?). The person footing the bill. All that stuff about eating costs, are not unique to your profession so I hope you were not thinking the grass was greener for doctors or Unix Sytem Administrators. (by the way, I wasnt picking on YOU specificly there, I ment lawyers in general. Of all the inflated hourly wages I have seen, Lawyers always seem to be the top of the ladder. Which brings us back to cost shifting, cut our smaller clients deals so that they can afford us, then padd the bill to the large fishies who wont notice the hit) Im still trying to figure out which part of the constitution said that the federal government is supposed to provide any kind of medical care. I didn't see it int he Bill of rights. Why are not people responsible for their own bills, their own health? We seem to be coming back to the idea we need nannies. Dammit Im an adult, I don't want the government taking care of me. The Constitution was set up to gaurentee individual liberty and equality, not to set up an adult day care.

[Timber Loftis]

Putting health care into your Nanny theory, MagiK? I don't think you'll find many supporters for that. Of course health care is not in the Constitution. But, like driving (ahem... "cross-threading you are" accused Yoda) it's something most Americans want. And, I humbly submit to you that if the government can bail out the steel industry by imposing import limitations (which violate the GATT/WTO and get penalties assessed to us via other industries who take the brunt) it can damn well prop up the pensions of steel workers that went broke when these pensions were illegally invested in bullshit futures and illegally reinvested in the same company (impermissibly inflating the company's value). And don't think I'm particularly steel-industry friendly here, as I really hate union-dominated industries. But pensions are pensions.

And, I assert the work I do is worth the money, but I agree that all professions have this limiting language and procedure thing going on to limit access to the profession's secrets by others. A great analysis of this can be found in the "teams" chapters of Irving Goffman's "The Presentation of Self in Everyday Life" if you're interested.

And yes, all professions cut the bill to the little guy and pad the bill to the big guys - thank god for some small favors in this world. But, I haven't seen that at my current firm (a small one), as the big guys they work with are so precious to them that they do some projects absolutely for free. This doesn't disprove your general assertion, though.

Oh, and FYI most contruction workers make more than me - without the student loan monkey on their back.

[ 10-25-2002, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

Timber, I would have thought that by now you knew me well enough to know that I don't base my thoughts and opinions on what the majority will think. My views about our nanny culture are no where near unique but I don't base my belief in my values because they are popular or what every one else is doing.

[ 10-25-2002, 01:54 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

[Attalus]

Originally posted by Donut: quote: Originally posted by Attalus: ]Actually, the only way that Britain and the other countries that have socialized medicine can afford it is that the USA has to maintain the only decent armed forces that maintain order, keep the sea lanes open, etc. We simply cannot afford socialized medicine. Nice for those of you that do.

Keeping the sea lanes open? Who tried to close them?[/QUOTE]Er, most recently, Adolf Hitler. And one of the first tasks that the Russian attack sub force was, in the event of a general non nuclear war was to cut off Englands trade. You do realize, as a Brit, that y'all have to import food to survive?

[Gandar]

Originally posted by Attalus: quote: Originally posted by Donut: quote: Originally posted by Attalus: ]Actually, the only way that Britain and the other countries that have socialized medicine can afford it is that the USA has to maintain the only decent armed forces that maintain order, keep the sea lanes open, etc. We simply cannot afford socialized medicine. Nice for those of you that do.

Keeping the sea lanes open? Who tried to close them?[/QUOTE]Er, most recently, Adolf Hitler. And one of the first tasks that the Russian attack sub force was, in the event of a general non nuclear war was to cut off Englands trade. You do realize, as a Brit, that y'all have to import food to survive? [/QUOTE]Donut, would you prefer that the U.S. wait untill someone tries to close the seaways to react and defend them? It is better to be prepared than to react.

[Djinn Raffo]

Originally posted by Attalus: Actually, the only way that Britain and the other countries that have socialized medicine can afford it is that the USA has to maintain the only decent armed forces that maintain order, keep the sea lanes open, etc. We simply cannot afford socialized medicine. Nice for those of you that do.

Totally untrue.