Question about Evolution/Creationism etc.

[WOLFGIR]

Oki, I´m making a little wildshot here at mention something about the newly evolved species...

Sorry guys, I like the religious debate also!

Well considering the time it takes to evolve into something else and to meet changes in daily life it is usually a very slowly change over several years that changes the planet or climate that forces animals to change in order to survive, but this takes alot of time, generations after generations to develope and well nature makes cruel changes as well and some species dies out and are replaced by others. Or drastic, likt eh theories of a big meteor crashing to earth and killed all the dinosaurs. Even the ones in the water. Life had to return to the planet and evolves probably from small scaled animals like mammals in the form of rodents and small predators. After that animals grew to be bigger better stronger faster, after awhile the specialisation process and the the curve ease out to a norm. A norm still means that animals ans species both change or dies and some new comes, but the process is very very long indeed. Right now we have what the scientist call for the dying curve. This is a pretty "drastic" one in our eyes since we can recall some species that are no longer, but this has happened before and slowly new life will be reborn or the animals we have will be tougher, but don´t forget that we are part of that evolution as well. We also change due to the influence of daily life. Take for instace height, that is resulting in higher and higher humans. Quite easy to see if you follow the records from old churches or armies.

So why no new ones? It takes time, a very long time and we are still in the dying circle and mankind is one of the reaonss animals are becomming extinct. It all moves in cycles, and you could as well start worrying for the next ice-age, cause it is still gonna come, but I think we are pretty safe from that for some centuries yet to come!
(edit note, this was a small summery of some programs that was called the evolution of species and mankind that you might have seen on TV, very interesting indeed. And I also took the "scientific view of this, since I was referring mostly to this program and don´t have that much to add about religions right now).

[ 04-24-2002, 09:19 AM: Message edited by: WOLFGIR ]

Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by Sir Michael: And, yes, I do have an idea of how big the country is...do you guys know just how small the world is??? I think it is really just a problem of perspective...humans in general are wrapped up in their own, petty little lives (me included), that there is no global space or future time oriented viewpoint..

Well now here's the thing. Last year I travelled a lot. Well, all year. I'm from Sydney, Australia and have ended up settling down in New York. I can tell you that travel does two things. It at once both shrinks the world and enlarges it.

The world is very small compared to the sun. It is also very large compared to bacteria. It all depends on your point of reference. I would not call the earth small, nor large unless using it in either context. Compared to me it is large.

So the earth is huge.

But I can talk to someone from the other side of the planet. So the earth is small.

This is what I mean about true perspecting allowing total sight. Not just seeing one side of a situation.

I disagree with your statement that all humans are "wrapped in their own petty little lives". It's a harsh statement for one.

What else has a person than their own experience. Of course survival and the immediate surroundings are going to take focal precedent. Why wouldn't they? Why be harshly judgemental about that? For someone critical of organised religion you seem to have picked up it's worst quality

Secondly there are many many people who sacrifice their own needs for those of others. Care and aid workers in the inner cities and war zones, religious instructors, certain medical professionals (outside the lucrative US of course ) certain types of teaching professionals, Mothers.....

It depends who you're looking at.[/QUOTE]Yorick, just wanted to pipe up about medical personnell inside the US.
yes some get quite rich, but the greatest amount of healthcare professionals work apalling hours in hifgh stress environments with only moderately adaquate income. There are tens of thousands of them who also donate their spare time to help those who are not covered by any of the existing plans and policies in this country....hehe I just had to speak up since Im currently employed by the nations largest Non-profit HMO [img]smile.gif[/img] (I don't really like HMO's in general)

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: Sorry, Michael, but fanatacism is not restricted to religious beliefs, just as "heavy handed" or "scare" tactics are not.

Great post Cerek, but if I could add one thing to your list. The sports fanatic. Think English football thug, or Urugayan World Cup fans. Actually "fan" is short for fanatic.

I just don't understand why John Lennon's killer is called a "John Lennon fan"

[Yorick]

Originally posted by MagiK: Yorick, just wanted to pipe up about medical personnell inside the US. yes some get quite rich, but the greatest amount of healthcare professionals work apalling hours in hifgh stress environments with only moderately adaquate income. There are tens of thousands of them who also donate their spare time to help those who are not covered by any of the existing plans and policies in this country....hehe

Well that's very good to hear. [img]smile.gif[/img] From the patients perspective that is. I think Nurses are horribly underpaid. I owe my life to nurses. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 04-24-2002, 09:29 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[Yorick]

Cool Wolfgir. As usual, great hearing your view. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: quote: Originally posted by Sir Michael: As someone who is and has been pressured on all sides to join this or that church, it worries me...so I asked the question. And I ask it again...what is it about religion that inspires such fanaticism? What inspires people to give up everything and live like dogs like they did in Afghanistan under the Taliban? What inspires people to believe in it so much they kill themselves like in Waco or Jonestown? I know for a fact the Mormon church actively tries to recruit young people to the church from all over the world, often using pressure and scare tactics. Why? Why can't religions respect other people's views (or lack thereof, in my case), and let people do as they please?

Interesting point of view, Sir Michael. Let me ask you this...

I know for a fact that some scientists like to use "scare tactics" to convince others that the world's resources are being burnt up like a short fuse and they bristle with righteous indignation when others disagree or question their logic.

Why can't they let people do as they please?

I've heard the stories of extreme environmentalists who have "spiked" trees in the Northwest to prevent them from being cut...even though they know full well that a lumberjack could be seriously injured or killed if their saw were to hit that spike and recoil off of it. In fact, that's their purpose, to increase the risk faced by the lumberjack so that they won't cut the tree. Never mind the fact that that is how he provides food and clothing for his family.

Why can't they let people do as they please?

What about animal rights activists who have vandalized research centers or thrown blood on fur coats worn by people?

Why can't they let people do as they please?

Sorry, Michael, but fanatacism is not restricted to religious beliefs, just as "heavy handed" or "scare" tactics are not.

Why do these people act the way the do? Because they believe fervently in thier cause. So do the religious.

Why do people kill themselves like in Waco or Jonestown? Because they were decieved by false prophets.

Why do people live like dogs in Afghanistan? Because they believe it is "Allah's Will" and that their reward in the afterlife will more than compensate for it.

Why do different religions "pressure" you to join thier church?
Because they believe your "lack of views" is JUST as destructive as you believe Americans environmental view is.

Everybody believes in something, and most of us believe very strongly about certain issues. The difference is that, of the examples mentioned, religion is the ONLY one in which the ENTIRE belief system is "judged" by the actions of a few extremists.

{SIDEBAR} I'm not familiar with this Jack Chick or "Mac" that have been mentioned. Which threads have these conversations in them?

{SIDEBAR 2} This discussion seems to be evolving into a purely religious debate (Hmmmm....does that mean this thread has become BETTER than when it first started?)[/QUOTE]Good Post Cerek, and this thread is waaaay off what I started it out as [img]smile.gif[/img] I guess it "evolved" hehehehe

I do agree that over population is a serious problem...the problem though lies not int he west but in the east. The Y2K census polls said we hit 6billion residents...but showed that the increases came in the east and that the west has a steady or declining growth rate, the USA, Europe and Australia could all quit having children all together and the population of the world would continue to grow and an alarming rate. (yeah I know I didn't post page numbers or authors names!)

Originally posted by norompanlasolas: well, this is going on quite nicely... interesting opinions. a couple of thoughts. anyone who has travelled (and not stayed in the hilton, of course) knows that the world is a beatiful place, but it can also be ugly... very ugly. why do i say this? because those places where its f***** up, tend to be the most populated. go to a country. visit the countryside, visit the monuments, see ancient architeture. marvel at nature. love it. go to a big city in that country. go to the factories area. breathe smog and smoke. go through the crowded streets. take the metro, see the people pushing each other, nervous, angry, concerned in their own little lives. go to the poor neighbourhoods. roam the streets looking for a hostel. see the homeless rumaging through the garbage, sleeping in carboard boxes, begging for change. hate it. everywhere ive been its always the same. always the same. and ive been to a good number of places. of course i havent travelled on first class. ive walked every city ive been to. ive felt the pulse of the population. ive slept in train stations, and even in salvation army places. is that a plan of god? not likely. god is a nice idea. a recomforting idea. it makes us feel like we are not so lonely. that life has a reason. that when we die we will retain our individual self, and not disappear into the void. that we will be rewarded for a life that followed the precepts of the religion you believed in. thats not bad, not bad at all. especially if it turns into positive actions. its when turned into fanaticism that becomes dangerous. when religion becomes the point, and not the instrument. anyways, ive ranted long enough, and have to go eat something. and since im not trying to convert anybody to my heathen atheist beliefs, ill stop now. [img]smile.gif[/img]

The one thing that always struck me when I was globe trotting, the more I traveled...the more I started to see that one place was much like another...you have a few basic envirnment types and all the rest are just a variation on a theme [img]smile.gif[/img] a really beautiful theme but still the more I saw the more I realized I didn't need to travel to see the beauty.

[Sir Michael]

Posts, posts, posts! Where to begin?

Cerek - Thank you for a well thought out and insightful post. I never said that there weren't other types of fanatics, but I focused on them because that was where this topic ended up at that point. I'll be the first to admit that scientists don't have all the answers and depending on the research, both sides of an issue can be supported. All a conscientious scientist can do is do careful research and experimentation, accumulate facts, try to draw logical conclusions from them, and then report them to people so decisions can be made. Being human, however, sometimes the facts are distorted to satisfy personal views and emotional needs.

Once again, Yorick, I disagree with you. I refuse to believe that negatives must exist with the positives in the world, for us to appreciate them or for any other reason. War and conflict are not inevitable, nor should they be. It is precisely this kind of fatalism that keeps people feeling hopeless and like they can't do anything about the problems in their lives or in the world around them, and that instead of trying to make this a better place, they give up and hope for better in heaven (or the next life, or wherever). I may have a bleak view of humanity and the destruction they have wrought upon the earth, its animals and themselves, but I never said things couldn't change...I just don't think its very likely.

Wolfgir - You brought up many valid points, including that we are on the "dying curve" right now, but I would point out that humanity is greatly accelerating the process. We wouldn't be losing hundreds of species a year if human activities weren't wiping them out. BTW, the next ice age may be closer than you think. Paradoxically, global warming may hasten the process.

[Bahamut]

Originally posted by Sir Michael: Wolfgir - You brought up many valid points, including that we are on the "dying curve" right now, but I would point out that humanity is greatly accelerating the process. We wouldn't be losing hundreds of species a year if human activities weren't wiping them out. BTW, the next ice age may be closer than you think. Paradoxically, global warming may hasten the process.

So you are then blaming yourself (and all of us) for the whole thing?

I mean yes, given that humanity is the cause, but not all of it. Generalizing it can hurt (like say, Silver Cheetah being a supporter of other organizations to world restoration) because a lot of people, more even than the ones that actually accelerate the process are in protest of it, it is just that it hasn't been stopped... yet.

We are getting there, since a lot of people now are being aware. Thanks to those commercials and all that, humanity just improved itself, and still you say humanity itself accelerates it... it is a matter of organization and fair distribution... not to blame it on humanity actually

Originally posted by Sir Michael: Posts, posts, posts! Where to begin? Paradoxically, global warming may hasten the process.

Or not so paradoxically, it is looking more and more as if the periodic "global Warming" cycles are what triggers the ice ages by releasing more CO2 (through increased vegetation) and the reduction in salination levels in the oceans. It is entirely possible that Man has had negligable effect on the average global temperature and that it is all part of a regular "natural" cycle. Too bad we didn't have scientists around to monitor the start of the last ice age.