Kyoto Protocol and the Bush Administration

[caleb]

He was better then drinkey mcdumbass....I mean bush jr

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BOW TO THE BISCUIT KING AND HIS THRONE OF SCONE!!!

[This message has been edited by caleb (edited 06-23-2001).]

[Sir Taliesin]

Originally posted by caleb: He was better then drinkey mcdumbass....I mean bush jr

Don't see that myself, but whatever.



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Sir Taliesin



If they take my gun can I still use my Axe?

missile defence is a bit ill thought out. Maintaining missiles takes an enormus amount of cash. Cash that "Rogue" states dont have. If they did get ahold of a nuclear weapon its more likely that they would deliver it by lorry or boat, much more incospicous.

like so many defence projects missile defence just a form of bribary. The weapons companys get enormus contracts, and the senators who vote is through get sub-contractor jobs in their state jus another form of bribary.


and with bush "commpasionate conservatism" is a paradox since conservatism is about catering for buisness and the people with money. all bush is a monkey puppet of the oilman, he wasnt even democratically elected. mind you its not like gore would have been any better, he was a dirty conservative too, same with clinton too. its just so terrible the way the rich and conservatives hold so much power in america.

[caleb]

Hmm I take it conservatives hunted your familys like dirty animals for you guys to hate them so much? they cant ALL be that bad....can they? I judge a politician on his individual performance not whether hes connected to a crappy party plus im not even old enough to vote so I dont pay attention to what each partys secret conspiracy agendas are maybe later when I am a bitter old man.

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BOW TO THE BISCUIT KING AND HIS THRONE OF SCONE!!!

[This message has been edited by caleb (edited 06-24-2001).]

[skywalker]

I believe that Bush Jr. was trained to fly outdated airplanes in the National Guard in Texas during the Vietnam Conflict. This insured that he would not fly planes there along with his other rich buddies in Texas.

Gaelic, you spout the Republican line so truly that you cannot fool me with your claims of nonpartisan affiliation.

I would have voted for McCain, he was the only candidate with b@ll$. Bush's campaign smeared him in the primaries, Bush has no honor.

Mark

[Gaelic]

Originally posted by skywalker: I believe that Bush Jr. was trained to fly outdated airplanes in the National Guard in Texas during the Vietnam Conflict. This insured that he would not fly planes there along with his other rich buddies in Texas. Gaelic, you spout the Republican line so truly that you cannot fool me with your claims of nonpartisan affiliation. I would have voted for McCain, he was the only candidate with b@ll$. Bush's campaign smeared him in the primaries, Bush has no honor. Mark

I don't care if someone went to Vietnam or not. All I care about is that they were up front about their actions. Bush was, Gore was not. He claimed to have gone places he never did, serve with units he never saw, and do things he never did. Talk about a lack of honor.

Conservatives do not stand for catering to big business, they stand for achievement as opposed to paying people more for doing less. If that means that get the ability to work hard and do well for themselves, so be it. Liberal politicians push to give government more control of our lives and do it by emplacing programs that make people dependent on the government.

As for my personal political stance, you have no idea what you are talking about. I have voted for Owen Pickett (2nd Congressional District of Virginia) at least twice, maybe three times. He is a democrat and he was the best man for the job. I am willing to bet that the people who rode the Louise Lucas (democrat who lost in the 4th district last week in a special election) bus to the polls did not give it that much thought.

Bush didn't smear McCain any more than McCain smeared him or than Gore did to anyone else. Thay are all politicians and they all play dirty. I was a McCain guy in the primaries, until he began his slide to the left in a chase for more personal power. That is a sign of no honor. Bush laid his views on the table from day one and he has followed them in exactly the way he said he would, except he has slid mor moderate than I had hoped he would. McCain jumps around to wherever he can get the spotlight.

Once again, there is more writing that comes after the large typface headlines.



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Gaelic

if you think conservatives are good look at what they did to britain under thatcher. ALso conservatives get rich beacuse they are prepared to trample on peoples rights and not pay any heed to the einviroment.

buisness dont want to be made accountable to the goverment soey say things like this: Liberal politicians push to give government more control of our lives"

also paying people more for doing less is GOOD, in many cases. what about people who work in sweatshops is it good to pay them more for doing less? the answer is YES!

also voteing in america means little nowadays. Both polictivla partys are in the richmans pocket. Politics in america is controlled by the rich with their cash donations and jobs offers. And maeking people rich is a bad idea, the economic growth being undergone by america is not sustainible, the resources of oil & coal & gas are being consumed at an ever increasing rate. Soon there wil be none left, then what will happen? collapse of America? end of civilisation as we know it?

Conservatism stands for short term explotation which is not sustainible. also poeple say liberalsim wants to make poeople dependant on the goverment, its impossilbe to be independant of the goverment. Without goverment there is nothing you cant be inderpendant of it

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[Sir Taliesin]

Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk: if you think conservatives are good look at what they did to britain under thatcher. ALso conservatives get rich beacuse they are prepared to trample on peoples rights and not pay any heed to the einviroment. buisness dont want to be made accountable to the goverment soey say things like this: Liberal politicians push to give government more control of our lives" also paying people more for doing less is GOOD, in many cases. what about people who work in sweatshops is it good to pay them more for doing less? the answer is YES! also voteing in america means little nowadays. Both polictivla partys are in the richmans pocket. Politics in america is controlled by the rich with their cash donations and jobs offers. And maeking people rich is a bad idea, the economic growth being undergone by america is not sustainible, the resources of oil & coal & gas are being consumed at an ever increasing rate. Soon there wil be none left, then what will happen? collapse of America? end of civilisation as we know it? Conservatism stands for short term explotation which is not sustainible. also poeple say liberalsim wants to make poeople dependant on the goverment, its impossilbe to be independant of the goverment. Without goverment there is nothing you cant be inderpendant of it

Business may want to trample peoples rights as you say, but governments want to take them away. For a country to grow and be sucessful, you must have a sucessful union of both. They cannot be at odds with each other. We have seen what happens when one or the other controls all, such as the Coal Industry in both the US and Great Briton. We have also seen what happens when the Governmnet controls all, such as the case in the FORMER USSR. The people in The FORMER USSR will be paying the price for generations to come. Even countries such as China are slowly moving to the capitalist view point.

Business and Government should work as a checks and balances to each other.
If we didn't have big business think of the advances we wouldn't have. Why would there be a reason to do research and who would pay for it? How would governments collect taxes? Would we do like the Communists did in the USSR?
Now there was a great example to follow! We could get rid of big business, all go live on a collective farm. We'll get a pay raise every year, the government gurentees it. Joe Blow over works his A$$ of over there, Why should I do anything. He's doing all the work. I'll still get paid to set on my butt all day and drink vodka. Yeah, thats the world I want to live in.

Government cannot be sucessful with out big business and Big ole dirty buiness cannot do it's thing with out government. That's why the political parties in every country are in the "so call pocket" of big business. That's also why the European Countries won't ratify the Kyoto Treaty, just like we won't. Oh maybe some of the smaller ones might, but the big economies of Briton, Germany and France won't. And let's face it. they are going to be the real power in the EU. Not countries like Denmark, Holland or Italy.

I think I probably stepped on a lot of toes here and if I've made anyone angry I apoligize. But that is the world as I see it. I don't consider myself to be either in Big Businesses corner, nor Big Government. They are something I as a person have to work with. Just as every other person in the developed countries must.



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Sir Taliesin



If they take my gun can I still use my Axe?

[Gaelic]

Sir T, great dose of reality. I especially agree with oyur last paragraph.



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Gaelic

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk: if you think conservatives are good look at what they did to britain under thatcher. ALso conservatives get rich beacuse they are prepared to trample on peoples rights and not pay any heed to the einviroment. buisness dont want to be made accountable to the goverment soey say things like this: Liberal politicians push to give government more control of our lives" also paying people more for doing less is GOOD, in many cases. what about people who work in sweatshops is it good to pay them more for doing less? the answer is YES! also voteing in america means little nowadays. Both polictivla partys are in the richmans pocket. Politics in america is controlled by the rich with their cash donations and jobs offers. And maeking people rich is a bad idea, the economic growth being undergone by america is not sustainible, the resources of oil & coal & gas are being consumed at an ever increasing rate. Soon there wil be none left, then what will happen? collapse of America? end of civilisation as we know it? Conservatism stands for short term explotation which is not sustainible. also poeple say liberalsim wants to make poeople dependant on the goverment, its impossilbe to be independant of the goverment. Without goverment there is nothing you cant be inderpendant of it

Dramnek ULK, Since I'm not a citizen of the UK I'll not address the Thatcher issue.
Conservatives are prepared to trample on people's rights and pay no heed to the enviroment? If you take that statement to its logical conclusion only consreves would have any money and the great masses would not have any thing. So, who would buy the product that conserves. sell? Remember we conserves had trampled on their rights so they are all poor now, but wait you also get their all DEAD now remember we conserves have trampled on the enviroment too. WE Consereves want everyone to DIE, we want our customers to DIE, our friends to DIE, our Wives, Childern, Siblings, and our Parents to DIE, Oh do not forget ourselves.
Buisnesses don't want to be held accountable to the government? Come on is that not an over simplfied general statement? I am a conservative capitalist enterpinure (sp?), I'm so conservative that I have to look to my Left to see Regean, Rush, or Thatcher. I also understand that the must be laws and regulations, in my buisness we need rules and regulations. I don't want to be held accounable to the federal govt. I would much rather be held accountable to my state govt. On the federal level My voice is only 1 of 275+ million (US)
in my state my voice is 1 of 4.5+- million (US). In my state capital my voice carries more wieght then in Washington D.C. What is wrong with wanting to be heard? The fact that the members of this forum post testifies the the fact that they want to be heard too. All people want to be heard. Most conserves. want more control at the local level not at the national level. The U.S. is a lot larger then the U.K. Geographicly it is easier to run your country from London then it is ours from Washington D.C. We have States that are larger then the U.K.
Paying people more for doing less is good? I'll have to charge more for my product to pay them more, my buisness must make a profit or all those people I'm paying more to do less will have no jobs. Then they will receive nothing for doing nothing. How are they going to feed their families then? How am I going to pay them? remember I've just lost My business I'm not making any money either so there are no taxes to be collected from me, or any other business, and individual. Now the goverment Can not pay anyone welfare cause they are not collecting taxes. Unless you have or run a busness you probablily don't understand what goes into it. I have to not only think about providing for my family, by making sure my buisness makes a profit. I Must also think about my employees families, My employees (I call them employees because they do not WORK for me or my company them WORK for themselves so that they can pay for what ever then need to pay for) must be able to take care of their families or I will lose them. Then where would my buisness be?
Voting in the U.S. doen't count tell that to the people that didn't get off there rear ends to vote for Al Gore in Florida. I learned that leason 20+ years ago while in art school, during student govt. elections. A friend, who was the least quaified the be pres., was running against a much more quaified person. Another friend and I voted for our Friend because we didn't want him to be embaressed (yes the quality gap was so great that our friend didn't deserve a single vote). Our friend won the election by 1 vote, if either of us had voted as if our vote had counted the election would have turned out differently.
No one should be rich? Tell that to the people of Seattle, Washington. How much economic help, and good has Mircosoft, done for their area? Where would they be without Bill Gates (I'm a MAC man and Hate Mircosoft more than any PC user can imagine we'd rule the world if Apple had a clue ) How about the people of Bentoville (SP?), Arkansas without Sam Walton? Or L.A., Ca. without the people that were willing to invest their money in starting the movie industry?
The U.S. can't sustain it economic growth? That is what was said in the early eighties, and with only TWO quarters of economic slow down in the early ninties (which were less of a slow down then the one that we are currently experiancing now. The current slow down was stared under our former Pres. Where is the outrage at Him like was at G.H. Bush? Every major news service cried about Bush, but not a word about Clinton.)
We conserves. understand that oil and other fossil fuels will run out, guess what the oil and gas copmpaies are looking into alternatives! I don't know about the U.K. but here in the U.S. years ago someon came up with Ethinol additive to gas (if I remember correctly, it was a corn based alcohol may not have been ethinol that is just the name that pops in to my nogg'n) It was rushed in to production and touted by the govt., enviros, everybody and their brother as the new enviomentaly safe fuel. It was pulled from the market because of the harm it did to the enivroment! Harm that was greater than straight gasoline alone! You just got to love it when they rush into these things.
As for the colapse of the U.S. it will happen sooner or later, it has happened to all countries, some worst than others. The cause of the U.S.'s calapse will be economic and when it does this country will come apart the likes of which have not been seen on the earth since Rome. My personal opinion on that is because we have a large segment of our population that think they are owed somthing for being alive. (Life is hard and meaner than most of us realize "life" will rip your face off and preform nasty bodily functions in the hole then sew your face back on so You have the plessure of tastsing it for the remainder of the time you have on earth. It is Your life take care of it.) I personaly hope it happens while my daughter are still at home so I can protect them, if not while they are at home the after I am dead and gone. Because if I cannot protect my family then I will have failed as a father and Husband.
Conservatism means going slow use tried and true methods (methods that have been around since the dawn of recorded history) and when you do branch out and try somthing new be sure it works go slow. Short term explotation? sounds like the things that where said in the late seventies and early eighties about how we would run out of fuel by 2000! I'm sorry but it is 2001 and there is still fuel around. I remember a story I reading in Reader's Diegest about a bet between Walter Willaims, a conservative ecomonics Professor (If I remember correctly) and a liberal, enivromentlist, (who's name excapes me). The bet was in 1980, it was that ajusted for inflation that five of the earths natural resourses would be higher in price in 1990 then in 1980. Walter Willaims said no that would not happen because the companies that dealt in those resourses would find new sourses. The Enviromentalist said that it would happen because we where RUNNING out of those resouses, and called a big press confernce to anounce the bet in 1980. In early 1990 the enviromentalist quietly wrote a check for $1,000 and sent it to Mr. Willaims favorite charity.
Nobody is calling for the destruction of govt. we want a more accountable govt. Which is going to mean local control not national control. Local govt. is easier to hold accountable, each persons vote means more.
Edited to get the smilies right JDH
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"the memories of a man in his old age,
are deeds of a man in his prime"

[This message has been edited by John D Harris (edited 06-24-2001).]

[This message has been edited by John D Harris (edited 06-24-2001).]