05-30-2003, 03:45 PM | #251 | |
The Magister
Join Date: January 2, 2003
Location: USA
Age: 55
Posts: 100
|
Quote:
Yorick, if the only terminology you can come up with to describe some of our activities is an empire, then perhaps we have a better understanding than either of us think we do. However, if the intent is to paint us in the same light as a true conquering and controling empire, as obviously noted numerous times in history, then there are *vast* differences. *If* so, then you will understand my disdain for your opinion, since it is then accurate only in your mind. Note, you do not see me saying we are perfect, our actions are always perfect, our intentions are always perfect and thus we always get a perfect result. But intentions are the heart of any action (saying this I am very familiar with the saying, "the path to hell is paved with good intentions"). That said, there is no intention of becoming an international conquering empire. Quite simply, whether you choose to believe it or not, the *VAST* majority of us, are not in the least bit interested in the true meaning of the word empire. Indeed, if you bother to read our history it has almost been the mission of this country to fight such at many given opportunities that came about. This coupled with an insular outlook on the rest of the globe, and with damn good reason. We are a country of immigrants, who came here fleeing empires, imperialism et al and that mindset does still exist with many of us who have generations of roots in this country. We listen to the stories of what it was like for our father in laws having fled Soviet dominated Eastern Germany for instance, all the while risking being shot for wanting to leave. We listened to grandpa having experienced the death camps of an empire, or witnessing the viciousness of how fellow soldiers had been treated by another empire. The key word here is we *listened*, and thus internalized the message. That being, we dont want anything to do with some morons imperial aspirations or the end results of that aspiration. Thus to paint Bush as an emperor is just plain silly. While I am not the greatest raging fan of George W. Bush, I am sincere enough to assert and understand that this man isn't a Fascist, Nazi or whatever other unsavory title is placed on his head by people who disagree with him. In fact, the ones who *do* disagree, more often than not, show all the intolerance, lambasting, and fact skewing more in line with who and what the Nazi's actually were. To dislike a politician or one of their policies is one thing, to go to the extremes that a certain segment of our population has is quite another. Indeed this goes right into both themes you chose to begin as topic lines here. My stance was and still is, that I disdain the notion of someone feeling the need to control every aspect of my life via legislation. In actuality, Yorick it says more about those wanting the control more than it does about the people whom they are trying to control. Whether it is you or George Bush proposing it, doesnt matter a hill of beans to me at all. The bottom line, is what I am interested in. You mentioned that NYC was "filled with people who didnt want to be there." What I say to that is "Oh fricking well"? You *choose* to live there, no one forced you to, via a gun barrel or elsewise. NY'ers choose their system of taxes government, and what they tolderate from other NY'ers. To then complain about the end result is.... to be nice, amusing as hell. In addition, the last time I checked NYC wasnt the United States, in fact its a dinky part of what is over here. Personally, having been there once, I feel absolutely no need to ever go back. Its not my cup of tea nor the lifestyle I would want my kids to be forced to live in. You want to know what the hell the United States is all about? Try visiting some of us salt of the earth people out here in the midwest. Wouldnt it be great if a persons word was their bond, that people meant what they said and said what they meant? If so, then you understand why I love it here so much. When this country is in a down and out swing, the heart and soul of this country keeps it together. It has been the case since the Northwest Territories became the modern day midwest, via multiple states. Believe it or not Yorick, there is still a pioneering spirit that exists in my neck of the woods. That being a mentality, that is lacking in any and all of our eastern coast cities. I love this country, because generally speaking I love the people living in it for the most part. I love the "can-do" attitude, the pushes progress forward, while solidifying where we came from. Really, you *should* take the time to experience it yourself. Being a cynical person, you likely wont believe your own eyes or ears. Tying this into your theme regarding empire. Hopefully you understand better where I am coming from. People out here at least, want nothing to do with making another country subservient to us, in every conceivable way. But that isnt for me to convince you of, you will believe what fits your need. More importantly it is what you convince yourself of. If that convincing, tells you that we are imperialistic bastards, then you missed the forest because those damned pesty trees got in the way. |
|
05-30-2003, 06:54 PM | #252 |
Lord Ao
Join Date: June 24, 2002
Location: Nevernever Land
Age: 49
Posts: 2,002
|
Surely then Elric, you can appreciate the irony that, in America's quest to become the refuge from Empire - we have become Empire. We happen to be unlike any other Empire known to history (though we are very similar to our parent nation Great Britain), but we are an empire.
__________________
[url]\"http://www.duryea.org/pinky/gurkin.wav\" target=\"_blank\">AYPWIP?</a> .... <img border=\"0\" alt=\"[1ponder]\" title=\"\" src=\"graemlins/1ponder.gif\" /> <br />\"I think so Brain, but isn\'t a cucumber that small called a gherkin?\"<br /><br />Shut UP! Pinky! |
05-31-2003, 04:53 AM | #253 |
Jack Burton
Join Date: March 1, 2001
Location: Airstrip One
Age: 40
Posts: 5,571
|
It's an Empire Jim, but not as we know it!
__________________
[img]\"http://www.wheatsheaf.freeserve.co.uk/roastspurs.gif\" alt=\" - \" /> <br />Proud member of the Axis of Upheaval<br />Official Titterer of the Laughing Hyenas<br />Josiah Bartlet - the best President the US never had.<br />The 1st D in the D & D Show |
05-31-2003, 11:48 AM | #254 | |||
Guest
Posts: n/a
|
Quote:
You're essentially saying: "We won't won't do bad things because we are so good". That would be nice it were true. Quote:
Who said that emperors all have to be fascists? George Bush can be an emperor and NOT BE A FASCIST at the same time. (although I would argue that america, Being a corperate oligarchy, does not in fact have an emperor in any meaningful sense of the world) Quote:
Why? Cos the house prices are ASSTRONOMICAL and so is the cost of liveing. This means that I may have to move somewhere Where houses are cheap. And If I did not have the qualifications to get a decent job etc (through the fact that I may have not been middle class, an immigrant or something) I may never have the money to move anywhere else. Think on that. HTH. TIA. HAND. |
|||
05-31-2003, 11:53 AM | #255 | |
Guest
Posts: n/a
|
Quote:
Rather than temporal colonisation, now we have corporate colonisation. Or globalisation. Wow, Look at all the homophones in that sentence, amazing eh? HTH. TIA. HAND. [ 05-31-2003, 11:55 AM: Message edited by: Eisenschwarz ] |
|
05-31-2003, 06:01 PM | #256 |
Very Mad Bird
Join Date: January 7, 2001
Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam)
Age: 52
Posts: 9,246
|
Since when did empire = evil? We do have two words that describe an evil empire and they are "evil" and "empire". Whether America is "evil" is a totally different discussion.
An Empire is amoral. It is simply a state of being. It is important to be self aware and realise what one IS however. Honesty in self evaluation is paramount. The pitfalls of EMPIRES are to be avoided. One can look at the aforementioned Athenian and Roman Empires and LEARN by seeing the similarities to America. Athens especially. The Athenian Empire was a democracy that had a tiny area, yet is called an Empire. It ruled a varity of states that were initially allies. If an "ally" chose to be anything other than a democracy, Athens would invade and reinstall a "Athens friendly" democratic government. Sound familiar? |
05-31-2003, 06:05 PM | #257 |
Apophis
Join Date: July 10, 2001
Location: By a big blue lake, Canada
Age: 50
Posts: 4,628
|
I'm sorry to barge in. But isn't it time to perhaps make a new thread since it is obviuos this horse has been resurrected? This thread now has 250+ posts and counting. [img]smile.gif[/img]
[ 05-31-2003, 06:06 PM: Message edited by: WillowIX ] |
05-31-2003, 06:45 PM | #258 |
Very Mad Bird
Join Date: January 7, 2001
Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam)
Age: 52
Posts: 9,246
|
|
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests) | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
EU Constitution: another one down | Dreamer128 | General Discussion | 6 | 02-11-2005 05:35 AM |
Constitution and HP | wellard | Neverwinter Nights 1 & 2 Also SoU & HotU Forum | 12 | 09-04-2003 04:50 AM |
Constitution | Nastymann | Icewind Dale | Heart of Winter | Icewind Dale II Forum | 5 | 08-02-2003 09:21 PM |
The American Constitution - Second Amendment.... | Yorick | General Conversation Archives (11/2000 - 01/2005) | 54 | 06-06-2003 08:58 PM |
Constitution | Hoggar | Baldurs Gate II Archives | 3 | 12-12-2000 08:01 AM |