your friend.. God

[Melusine]

Hugh, Chewbacca, why take Harkoliar's thread even further off topic? Unless he likes the direction this thread is taking, of course, which I am not so sure about. I think Hierophant was out of line and probably knows it too. It's sad indeed that threads started to promote happiness end like this, with people not knowing when to leave a well intended thread alone if they disagree.
But Hugh, sorry mate but why be so fierce? Why not discuss what Chewbacca said with just a smidge more respect? I know Christians on here have gotten disrespect as well over the past time, though I'm not sure why even "tireless rebutter" Cerek would feel strongly enough that he doesn't want to have a normal debate anymore. It's sad when a few bad apples make you lose faith (no pun intended) in all people here, most of whom have certainly NOT been disrespectful to all of Christianity. But that's up to you of course, if you don't feel like it's worth your time any more I can definitely understand that. If I were Chewbacca right now though, I'd wonder if this was worth my time either, though. Hugh, Christ may mean anointed one, but it has also come to be used as a name. The Pope isn't a name, it means father, yet it *is* used as a name and a form of address and reference. You can use adjectives like papal without people ridiculing you and asking if you mean "of or pertaining to or belonging to a father". I thought it was kind of sad you felt you had to ridicule Chewbacca for saying "inner Christ". That usage is just as wrong or right as saying "Christ-like qualities". Of course you don't mean "anointed one qualities", you mean qualities resembling those of Jesus Christ. If Chewbacca meant, for instance, that everyone should try and find an 'inner voice' that aspires to resemble Jesus in terms of all his good qualities, then I don't see how that is wrong, or how it is fair to ridicule his use of the term for that. No one OWNS the right to a religion. Christians all over the world disagree on smaller matters. That's why Chewbacca was right too, that you don't speak for all Christians, not even all Protestants, as I know you know too.

As for Karma, just a single line from a dictionary isn't going to help you much. You know I defended you and your arguments about definitions of words before. But you should realise that while we need workable definitions of words, and not arbitrarily decide for ourselves that for instance 'sect' means 'all religions' , there is absolutely nothing wrong with suggesting that Karma is not exclusive to Hindu and Buddhist beliefs, or explaining what it means to you personally. I know that for instance Christ means a world to you, more than any few lines from me could capture, so I doubt you'd like it if I quoted a dictionary at you and said "THIS is what Christianity means, not a whit more". As long as we don't start using definitions that mean the opposite of the dictionary definition, there's nothing wrong with elaborating upon them.

BTW - if I get a reaction similar to the ones I've seen lately, I don't think I'll respond. I'm sorry, but I wouldn't like to jeopardise our very much valued friendship and I feel you sometimes do get what you yourself once called 'arrogant' in debates, not wanting to take words as they were intended but as whatever you make them to mean... Sorry mate. I hope you'll take that from a friend, in the spirit in which it was intended.

Edit: hadn't seen Chewbacca's latest reply yet as I wrote this. I guess this'll be locked then
I hope people will not take that as another piece of proof that you "cannot be a Christian here anymore" because that is just not fair or accurate.
This thread, IF it is locked, is locked because a select few people had severe disagreements and feelings on BOTH sides of the fence where trod upon.

[ 10-16-2003, 04:47 AM: Message edited by: Melusine ]

[Harkoliar]

hey guys .. your getting very close already (if not)... in flames right now.. i would not be surprised if this thread will be locked.
and melusine is right i never liked what the thread is degenerating at.. (which is why i did not post anything about it.)

further more, one level more of this kind of debate (of the flaming kind of way ) and i will personally delete this thread since more than one person has been pissed off already in this..

edit: keep cool guys log off take a break and come back cool headed, that is what i would want from you guys. cheers.

[ 10-16-2003, 05:01 AM: Message edited by: Harkoliar ]

[Chewbacca]

Thanks for the wake up call Melusine.

I apologize for taking this thread totally off-topic and out of the spirit it was posted in.

Also I apologize because I didn't grasp the spirit this thread was posted in the first place. To me, it did kinda feel like a religious guilt trip (edit-I was wrong) and I made a joke in light of that because I believe God is always close-by and naturally wants people to feel good and, well, humor feels good.


I apologize if my humor about God offended anyone. I figured if comic strips like the Farside and comedians like George Burns could make inoffensive humor about God, so could I.

[ 10-16-2003, 05:08 AM: Message edited by: Chewbacca ]

[Melusine]

Hark, DON'T delete this thread!! It is completely unfair to the people who took time posting well-thought out replies (no, I'm not talking about myself ) and it's precisely that sort of thing that the mods don't want to see happening. In fact, IIRC, it is because of people deleting their own threads and posts that Ziroc decided to put a temporary time-limit on editing. And I was thrilled when he lifted it because now I can update Stealthy's Index as many times as I want.
So don't delete it, it's discourteous to all people who posted here.

That said, people here have been discourteous to YOU by derailing your thread, an I for one think we should all respect the fact that you don't like the way this thread is going, and stop posting potentially controversial stuff here.
I hope the thread will stay clean from now on Harkoliar, and if not, a mod can always lock it. But let's just hope people will respect the opinion of the topic-starter for now. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Harkoliar]

Hark, DON'T delete this thread!! It is completely unfair to the people who took time posting well-thought out replies (no, I'm not talking about myself ) and it's precisely that sort of thing that the mods don't want to see happening. In fact, IIRC, it is because of people deleting their own threads and posts that Ziroc decided to put a temporary time-limit on editing. And I was thrilled when he lifted it because now I can update Stealthy's Index as many times as I want. So don't delete it, it's discourteous to all people who posted here. That said, people here have been discourteous to YOU by derailing your thread, an I for one think we should all respect the fact that you don't like the way this thread is going, and stop posting potentially controversial stuff here. I hope the thread will stay clean from now on Harkoliar, and if not, a mod can always lock it. But let's just hope people will respect the opinion of the topic-starter for now.

i respect your decision melusine.. then i will let the mods watch over this then . i simply aimed to promote something of god, not guilt and conscience or church blah (although i agree on some of your opinions). cheers guys !

[ 10-16-2003, 05:14 AM: Message edited by: Harkoliar ]

[Harkoliar]

chewie ----------- Also I apologize because I didn't grasp the spirit this thread was posted in the first place. To me, it did kinda feel like a religious guilt trip (edit-I was wrong) and I made a joke in light of that because I believe God is always close-by and naturally wants people to feel good and, well, humor feels good.

as long as there is no hate and would-be-revenge (in regards to debtate, etc..) involved in the future im in letting this thread open for discussion..

[ 10-16-2003, 05:17 AM: Message edited by: Harkoliar ]

[LordKathen]

Originally posted by Vaskez: Oh forget it, I've had enough to last me a lifetime of Christianity dissers and jokers. People start having bloody heart attacks and popping blood vessels when there is an injustice against a woman or a black person or any minority group or anything "politically incorrect" is said. But it's ok to rip the piss out of Christians, completely ridiculing their beliefs and laughing at their teachings? Sometimes I feel like kicking some serious ass around here. Some people who don't even have the foggiest what they're talking about spout utter crap 99% of the time. Religious debates are completely useless on forums, I've learned that much, that's why I'm not getting into it. So let's just leave it at that.

Well your right on there! But, there is another "minority" group I am not sure your taking into consideration. Athiests. I here all kinds of degrading, disgusting, steriotypicle, hatefull remarks from "christians", concerning an athiests morals, ideals, beliefs, thoughts, etc. I even heard a radio talk show host say one time (on national radio) that athieism is just an excuse to be pedophile! So, as you certainly have the right to avoid this discussion, please dont forget that, concerning faith or God or religion, there are other people who are outcast completly for their views. I dont rip christians for their veiws. I rip the ones who rip me for mine.

[Melusine]

Uh LordK, please read the last few posts here. Start a thread of your own in the Current Events forum if you like, I'm sure it would be interesting. [img]smile.gif[/img]
But this thread is not the place for it mate.

[ 10-16-2003, 05:21 AM: Message edited by: Melusine ]

[LordKathen]

Originally posted by Yorick: This is ridiculous. Chewbacca, we're speaking English. As such, words have specific meanings. You can't simply decide a word means whatever you want it to. If "Karma" doesn't work for you then don't use it. Don't go attempting to redefine the definition simply because it doesn't fit into your belief system. As such I introduced the term in the correct historical and English usage. Perhaps I should have defined my terms more correctly. In any case, you took exception to my words so I shall clarify them. Karma in my argument means this: kar·ma Pronunciation: 'kär-m& also 'k&r- Function: noun Etymology: Sanskrit karma fate, work Date: 1827 1 often capitalized : the force generated by a person's actions held in Hinduism and Buddhism to perpetuate transmigration and in its ethical consequences to determine the nature of the person's next existence ---------------- from this site: http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/freenet/r...hs/karma2.html quote: The Law of Karma In Buddhist teaching, the law of karma, says only this: `for every event that occurs, there will follow another event whose existence was caused by the first, and this second event will be pleasant or unpleasant according as its cause was skillful or unskillful.' A skillful event is one that is not accompanied by craving, resistance or delusions; an unskillful event is one that is accompanied by any one of those things. (Events are not skillful in themselves, but are so called only in virtue of the mental events that occur with them.) Therefore, the law of Karma teaches that responsibility for unskillful actions is born by the person who commits them

---------------

It's ridiuclous the way that you'll use a pre-existing word that has a specific meaning, and then act as though the word means whatever you deem it should. Like "Christ". Do you even understand what the word means? It simply means "Annointed one". When you use words like "ones inner Christ" it becomes ludicrous. Ones inner annointed one? "Christ was an honorific accorded Yeshua, not a name he was born with. It has exactly the same meaning as "Messiah". Do you refer to your inner messiah? Pre-existing meanings are important when discussing Chewbacca, otherwise confusion reigns.

In the context of my discourse, what I said about Karma holds and I see no reason to retract it. If ever I speak of Karma, I am speaking of the historical Buddhist, Hindu and Jainist word, term and idea, not some reinvented definition of you or another American pseudo-amalgamators choosing.

Secondly, I maintain, a generalisation was made on peoples motivations. A huge generalisation that inclued me in it's umbrella. This is very different to making a comparitive comment on a worldview - on a set of ideas - as held by a billion odd people.

Like it or not Karma is the measurement of a persons actions, as held by the overwhelming majority of people who adhere to it's reality. As such, it is the applier of guilt and consequence and effect for a persons actions. Jewish "Law" does exactly the same thing, which is why I used both.

The idea of the sinless Yeshua dying on the cross, and paying the ultimate price in the place of humanity is one that places people who accept his atonement outside of that consequence. Outside of Law, outside of Karma.

Your protestations merely serve to distract from what I was actually saying. That accepting Yeshua, REMOVES GUILT. Christians full of the awareness of Yeshuas love should be walking around guilt free. If there is guilt, it is a flaw in the believers mindset, as it is not co-aligning with Yeshuas promises and teaching that they have accepted.

Let's not walk down a bizzarre path of confusing terms that have nothing to do with what I was speaking about, nor the topic at hand. [/QUOTE]While you are correct about words having specific meanings, most of our language comes from interpretations from other languages. I have debated with you before, and had become quite distracted from your symantics. We live in a time where words are constantly slanged, changed, misinterpreted,and admitingly screwed up. Not everyone here is as "symanticly articulate" as you. Maybe you could try not to read everything so concretely, and try to remember that alot of people speak generaly. Like "Karma". There is a definate root definition to the word, but after so long it has kinda come to maybe mean slightly diferent things to some people. I personaly think of it as "what comes around goes around". You could expound on that to meet your own thoughts just a little, ya know, generally speaking.

Please dont take offence to what I am saying Yorick, It was just a thought I had, reading your response to others (and me) in the past, and in this thread.

Besides all that, I hav'nt been around IW works in a while. Hope everything is going well with your music and your life.

[ 10-16-2003, 05:43 AM: Message edited by: LordKathen ]

[LordKathen]

Originally posted by Melusine: Uh LordK, please read the last few posts here. Start a thread of your own in the Current Events forum if you like, I'm sure it would be interesting. [img]smile.gif[/img] But this thread is not the place for it mate.

OOPS! Sorry Mel. I hav'nt been around in a while and have forgoten some etiquite and maners. Thank you. And hello, BTW.

[ 10-16-2003, 05:48 AM: Message edited by: LordKathen ]