I am not a Pacifist

[Diogenes Of Pumpkintown]

Just thought I would make that clear, since there seems to be a good deal of misunderstanding about that from some of the recent debates here on what actions should be taken in response to the WTC destruction.

Liliara even implied that I and some others arguing against the War approach in this case, at this time, would sit by and watch our own children be slaughtered before our eyes by bloodthirsty criminals, even if we could stop it by the use of force.

Well, to make it clear, Liliara and others who have mistakenly concluded that is my position . . . I am not against violence at all as a means of protecting innocent life.

I believe in the right of self-defense, and to own a gun if one desires for that purpose. I believe in the death penalty. I believe a person has every right to absolutely beat the livin' hell out of an aggressor, and to kill him if necessary, to defend the his own life, or the life of his family, or the life of a complete stranger.

This IS our law in this land. I believe it is effective and just. I support the principles behind it in every way.

Liliara, to satisfy your apparent belief that to be a Real American Man one has to be ready and able to use macho killing for the Cause,

let me just say that to save the life of my children, or other innocents, I would be vicious and ruthless and unmerciful. Though I have never had too, I can and would kill someone who would dare threaten innocent children like that. I can and would kill to protect the life of an innocent stranger, of whatever nationality, race, creed, or religion.

In my opinon, the people that would deserve killing in such situations have forfeited their right to life. By their own actions they have renounced allegiance to the mutual understanding in society with other people that such things are not to be done.

You misunderstand what I am saying totally if you think that my opposition to treating this like a War with Afghanistan or a large part of Afghanistan comes from Pacifistic views or feelings.

Just wanted to clear that up

[Nachtrafe]

Wow...Awesome post Dio!

Hey...is the sky turning green? This is the third or fourth time I have agreed with you lately.

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"In Memorium of those who are gone, and all those that bought our freedom with their hearts blood!"

"May the Colors of Liberty never run"

I respect your opinion
and i disagree

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I'm Watching you...

[Diogenes Of Pumpkintown]

Originally posted by Nachtrafe: Wow...Awesome post Dio! Hey...is the sky turning green? This is the third or fourth time I have agreed with you lately.

You are just sucking up so you can get into the Illuminati Clan


Hmmm . . . so far its working

[Diogenes Of Pumpkintown]

Originally posted by Rikard: I respect your opinion and i disagree

LOL. Disagree about what, Rikard?

Seriously, I respect your opinion as well. I have no clue as to what you meant by that.

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown: Just thought I would make that clear, since there seems to be a good deal of misunderstanding about that from some of the recent debates here on what actions should be taken in response to the WTC destruction. Liliara even implied that I and some others arguing against the War approach in this case, at this time, would sit by and watch our own children be slaughtered before our eyes by bloodthirsty criminals, even if we could stop it by the use of force. Well, to make it clear, Liliara and others who have mistakenly concluded that is my position . . . I am not against violence at all as a means of protecting innocent life. I believe in the right of self-defense, and to own a gun if one desires for that purpose. I believe in the death penalty. I believe a person has every right to absolutely beat the livin' hell out of an aggressor, and to kill him if necessary, to defend the his own life, or the life of his family, or the life of a complete stranger. This IS our law in this land. I believe it is effective and just. I support the principles behind it in every way. Liliara, to satisfy your apparent belief that to be a Real American Man one has to be ready and able to use macho killing for the Cause, let me just say that to save the life of my children, or other innocents, I would be vicious and ruthless and unmerciful. Though I have never had too, I can and would kill someone who would dare threaten innocent children like that. I can and would kill to protect the life of an innocent stranger, of whatever nationality, race, creed, or religion. In my opinon, the people that would deserve killing in such situations have forfeited their right to life. By their own actions they have renounced allegiance to the mutual understanding in society with other people that such things are not to be done. You misunderstand what I am saying totally if you think that my opposition to treating this like a War with Afghanistan or a large part of Afghanistan comes from Pacifistic views or feelings. Just wanted to clear that up

Yo Dio, not joining in - just popped in to say goodnight. Must go to bed right now if I'm to awake fresh tomorrow for another day of jubilant and procrastinatory posting.....

Goodnight!

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Ascended Mistress of Illumination

I would like to state that I as a pacifist, accept Dio's staement that he is not a pacifist.
My non-violent veiws are rooted in my spiritual heritage, one that also teachs acceptance that not everyone will be a pacifist, or will want to be one, largely because of the basic reasons Dio stated on why that he is not one.
My best friend has very similar views you do, Dio. I think its important to understand each other, even if our views seem to conflict.

Also if I personally saw a child, or someone weak being attacked violently, I would not stand by and do nothing. In one situation I suffered a severe beating, while a female African American friend of mine ran for her life from some stupid racist skinheads. They had knocked her down and were kicking her outside a concert, so I jumped on ones back and bit his ear as hard as I could. Fortunatly after they had broke three ribs and cracked my skull, some not so pacifistic friends of mine saved my life.
Its paradoxical I know, but my conscience rules my behavior on a daily basis, not any certain abstract philosphy. If I hadn't intervened, and my friend had been beaten, I would not advocate violent revenge, but I would advocate justice. The heat of the moment can make even a pacifist react in a less than peaceful way.

[Fljotsdale]

I'm not a pacifist either!

I disagree about keeping guns, though. And I think diplomacy and negotiation are the most valuable tools we have. We NEED to take care to prevent more innocent deaths.......

But the perpetrators of violent crimes, be they terrorists or not, should be found and dealt with according to justice.

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[Moridin]

If you accept violence as a way of protecting innocent lives, then how could you view a US attack on bin Laden as wrong?

Take a step back and view this not as revenge, but as prevention, then an anology of protecting innocents with violence is acceptable is it not?

The problem that is encountered is how do you justify the potential deaths of innocents now by our attack, against the potential deaths of innocents later by more terrorist attacks? It is a very difficult decesion to be made.

I know that snipers (either military or police) are trained to wait to eliminate a target until their is little or no threat to innocents, but I know that they are also trained, that when a sitution does not improve, to take out a threat, even if it may harm/kill an innocent, b/c by doing so they are inevitably saving more lives.

Like I said, a very difficult question!

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Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig
I've got to admit it's getting better, it's getting better all the time
Bossman of Better Funny Stuff.....of the Laughing Hyenas!

[Diogenes Of Pumpkintown]

Originally posted by Moridin: If you accept violence as a way of protecting innocent lives, then how could you view a US attack on bin Laden as wrong? The problem that is encountered is how do you justify the potential deaths of innocents now by our attack, against the potential deaths of innocents later by more terrorist attacks? It is a very difficult decesion to be made. Like I said, a very difficult question!

I don't think the question is difficult at all.

When did I ever say that an attack on Bin Laden was wrong? I am totally in favor of using force against Bin Laden.

He is a criminal who should be dealt justice. The application of Justice by governments and law inherently involves the use of force, and deadly force if necessary. I understand that very well. I have personal experience of it. Hell, i represent the state in the application of said law backed up by guns and chains and iron bars.

Yes, attack Bin Laden, as the Criminal he is. I agree totally.

I don't make any attempt to rationalize the deaths of innocents, Moridin. I don't think we have to. I think it is far more important to avoid it in the first place.