What do you think is an acceptable Minimum wage?

Originally posted by Bardan the Slayer: quote: Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Third, is that $6.50-$7.00 figure in US dollars? I assume you translated from quid for us, but just making sure. (England isn't on the Euro yet, is it?)

Indeed it is, indeed I did (and indeed we're not) [img]smile.gif[/img]

And yes, call me Over-Reaction Man. It's my calling card [/QUOTE]
Just to brighten your day [img]smile.gif[/img] We have had aminimum wage here in the states for decades...and it has never done anything to stem poverty, we still got it, and we still got a ton o people sittin on their dead butts not doing anything to get off welfare....throwing "free money" at people doesnt solve anything.

Edit: Actually giving people free anything isn't necessarily conducive to well being.

[ 06-10-2003, 03:04 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

[Timber Loftis]

MagiK, it's not the deadbeats that are the problem -- they always will be no matter the minimum wage (within reason). It's the poor folks struggling to make it on minimum wage or close to it. I've met them, I've worked with them. They're 50-yr-old waitresses working for $2.50 + tips and hour, always picking up extra shifts. They're gas station and video store attendants. I don't go through life looking at these people with derision, thinking "yeah, buddy, you *should* work 80 hours a week."

Germany has a lofty minimum wage from what I understand (teachers make equivalent of US $60K IIRC) and a 35-hr. work week, yet its economy was strong enough to do the heavy lifting of its poorer half after re-unification.

Truth is that raising the minimum wage just might not affect the economy too much. Proctor & Gamble isn't going to match wage increases with rising Tide prices (pun intended) on a penny-for-penny basis, most likely. Rather, some execs may simply have to swallow a measley bonus rather than $20K/yr in stock options at Christmas time.

[Bardan the Slayer]

Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by Bardan the Slayer: quote: Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Third, is that $6.50-$7.00 figure in US dollars? I assume you translated from quid for us, but just making sure. (England isn't on the Euro yet, is it?)

Indeed it is, indeed I did (and indeed we're not) [img]smile.gif[/img]

And yes, call me Over-Reaction Man. It's my calling card [/QUOTE]
Just to brighten your day [img]smile.gif[/img] We have had aminimum wage here in the states for decades...and it has never done anything to stem poverty, we still got it, and we still got a ton o people sittin on their dead butts not doing anything to get off welfare....throwing "free money" at people doesnt solve anything. [/QUOTE]Ah, there you have my agreement. There is a problem over here too with people abusing the welfare system, making it a way of life instead of a safety net, but my point is that those who *do* work should be able to put in a week's work (40 - 45 hours), and go home with a wage that is perfectly adequate to support them on a weekly basis. It shouldn't be a *starting point*, it should be a measure of how much you need to live on in a decent manner, enforced so that anyone in full-time employment earns this, and can live without fear of even the smallest unexpected expense plunging them into severe financial trouble.

Now, if you had argued in the thread that "We need to get poeple off the lifestyle of the welfare system, and get them into employment, even if it is only at minimum wage", then you would have had no complaints from me [img]smile.gif[/img]

Timber, I know that...I used to be one of them...In the Military you are making a pretty low wage, when I got out of the service the first two jobs I had were under $10 an hour. It took both our incomes to survive on (I started at $6.30 an hour in the first job and $9 in the second). My pont is, that minimum wage laws won't help those people. I know it is sad, but despite everything, not everyone can imporve their position in life. One of the best ways to help those who are at least trying is to kick the dead beats off the doll....and there ARE plenty of those, another is to cut government spending on fantastic retirement packages and exorbitant perks for government officials, trimming government spending on really frivolous stuff and focus those dollars into education programs for people like you mentioned, and while your at it, turn the justice department and an army of accountants loose on the current education buraucracy and put some of those people behind bars and get rid of the graft....rant rant rant

Originally posted by Bardan the Slayer: Ah, there you have my agreement. There is a problem over here too with people abusing the welfare system, making it a way of life instead of a safety net, but my point is that those who *do* work should be able to put in a week's work (40 - 45 hours), and go home with a wage that is perfectly adequate to support them on a weekly basis. It shouldn't be a *starting point*, it should be a measure of how much you need to live on in a decent manner, enforced so that anyone in full-time employment earns this, and can live without fear of even the smallest unexpected expense plunging them into severe financial trouble. Now, if you had argued in the thread that "We need to get poeple off the lifestyle of the welfare system, and get them into employment, even if it is only at minimum wage", then you would have had no complaints from me [img]smile.gif[/img]

We don't seem to disagree on the substance just the method [img]smile.gif[/img] Lifestyle welfare systems are a drain on any society and need to be abolished....but that is just my opinion [img]smile.gif[/img] ...now if I ever get made King of America..look out world

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: quote: Originally posted by Chewbacca: I like the Ben and Jerry's corporate pay concept where no employee, including Ben and Jerry themselves, has a salary more than 7 times the lowest paid employee's salary. That is capitalism at it's best if you ask me.

That idea lasted about as long as Milli Vanilli's attempts to actually sing their lyrics. B&J backpedaled when no corporate execs would take the job they had to offer. So, now, just like everyone else, they work under the reality that there are people in the company making 100 times what the lowest paid worker makes. [/QUOTE]Well burst my bubble why don't ya!

When did this happen? My information about this is dated 1999 and B&J were around for a few years before that.

Ironic that Milli and Vannilli could actually sing isn't it?

[ 06-10-2003, 03:16 PM: Message edited by: Chewbacca ]

One thing many people who are not in management or personnel positions do not understand...is that truely talented people are not easy to find. Salaries are not high just because of some whim, there is fierce competition for people in skilled positions...my job for example...while not astro-physics, there are only a certain percentage of people who have this aptitude, so when company A needs a person like me, they can't find them because they are already employed...how do you attract them? You offer them more money...better benefits, more perks...this is how working people better their position. If you are not in a postion that takes skill, training or talent, or are in an HR position then you may not think about how those saleries got where they are.....
It goes in cycles, saleries go up, people see high paying jobs, they start training for those jobs, the market gets flooded with people, saleries drop, people look for different vocations...people get scarce...saleries go up...and round it goes....

[Timber Loftis]

Actually, MagiK, each and every corporate exec I've met is merely a better bullshitter than the next guy. I'll tell you if I ever see evidence that this isn't the case, but it's the nature of the beast. Ever known folks in MBA school? They'll tell you it's a degree in networking people more than anything. It is dominated by the same folks who were captains of sports teams and leaders of the "in crowd" in high school, both of whom excel and prevail in all of the "group planning" activities they do while pretending they are at school learning an advance degree.

Sorry, [img]graemlins/rant.gif[/img] Over.

[IAmThumper]

Hi
Here are my 2 cents. I don't think you could ever cap a salary. I know that many companies do have self imposed salary caps.
Instead of a cap what governments do is have a tax bracket system in which people who make more then 1 mill a year end up paying 90% of every dollar after that to the government. I'm Canadian and am not sure but I don't think the US really likes to do this.
Every time I hear anything it's the US getting rid of this kind of system. But this system makes sense. You tax the poor less since they can't afford it and you tax the people who can afford it more. I understand it's a big business thing going on. One way of looking at it is if people can earn any amount that they want then there is more incentive for people to work hard to earn that salary which wouldn't be there if there was a salary cap or if 99% of the next dollar went to the government. Whether they are right or wrong I have no idea.
This is what I think would happen if the minimum wage was raised. Prices would go up. This means that poor people would still be poor. It also means that middle income people who wouldn't get any pay raise would be paying more which would effectively make them poorer. This basically squishes the middle and poor income families into one poor class. It doesn't affect the upper class much at all. Think about it this way the percentage you pay for food and necessities gets smaller the more the income you have. All it will mean for rich income families is that they will be paying 0.2% instead of 0.1% for necessities.
This being said a higher minimum wage would redistribute the wealth to lower income families. It just raises it at the cost of middle income families. The question is whether this helps. Does the benifit to lower income families out weigh the cost to middle-high income families.
But we can't stop there. This has much more impact then just the division of wealth. It affects the operating cost of companies. Salaries effect small companies much more than big companies hence more small companies would go out of business.
This is a very complicated topic.

MagiK:"You are supposed to be starting out at this wage and then using your god given brain and talents and hard work to improve your skill then move to a job that pays according to your worth."
As for what Magik wrote. No one should have the right to put a value on the hard work and intelligence of others. No one is defined by their job! There are and always will be tons more (low-paying) service jobs then (high paying) thinking jobs and just because you can't find a high paying job doesn't mean you have to live like an animal. I think everyone should have the right to live and be happy. If I'm happy (or better) at flipping burgers then I shouldn't have to be poor. It doesn't mean I'm going to get rich doing it but I should be able to get by.

That's my 2 cents. It's funny how big this reply got.
IAmThumper

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Actually, MagiK, each and every corporate exec I've met is merely a better bullshitter than the next guy. I'll tell you if I ever see evidence that this isn't the case, but it's the nature of the beast. Ever known folks in MBA school? They'll tell you it's a degree in networking people more than anything. It is dominated by the same folks who were captains of sports teams and leaders of the "in crowd" in high school, both of whom excel and prevail in all of the "group planning" activities they do while pretending they are at school learning an advance degree. Sorry, [img]graemlins/rant.gif[/img] Over.

Different level of game when you talk Corporate execs T.L. IF you look I am talking skilled people, talented people, or people who bring something special to the works....such as an all star sports person, There ARE those people in business too who have either connections, talent or a mix of both. You can't be generalizing and saying "All exec's are over paid" there are people who have literally through their efforts built business up from nothing and made millions for many others. It isn't ALL bullshit dude...when it comes down to it, you usually have to produce or your out. Yes a lot of not so great people get their positions through bullshit, but you usually have to produce to keep the position...unless you go up to an even higher level of game which Im not discussing in my post.