Judge: Loughner can be made mentally fit for trial

[Micah Foehammer]

Originally Posted by SpiritWarrior Yeah but again, this is a mental disorder. By nature it has defenses to protect itself. Like I said in response to the same fact earlier, it would be different if it was a contusion on his arm that began to look serious. If he sought no help and then it morphed into cancer he would only have himself to blame. But schizophrenia is an illness based on delusions.

The problem is that schizophrenia is generally regarded as a progressive disorder. So there is no way of telling exactly what his state of mind was at the time of the warning from the college. Nor can you or I say with any degree of precision to what degree his condition degenerated in the intervening period culminating in the Tuscon shootings.

All we can say is that he did murder two people and attempted to kill at least three others and he STILL represents a significant risk to society. I have to side with the folks who say he should be locked up for life. Loughner just represents too great a risk. And I don't think he deserves a pass at all.

[SpiritWarrior]

Originally Posted by Micah Foehammer The problem is that schizophrenia is generally regarded as a progressive disorder. So there is no way of telling exactly what his state of mind was at the time of the warning from the college. Nor can you or I say with any degree of precision to what degree his condition degenerated in the intervening period culminating in the Tuscon shootings. All we can say is that he did murder two people and attempted to kill at least three others and he STILL represents a significant risk to society. I have to side with the folks who say he should be locked up for life. Loughner just represents too great a risk. And I don't think he deserves a pass at all.

Right, we cannot know - it's true. All I know is what I have read or seen of the story. I have no idea of his progression. While we do indeed know he murdered people, we also know he was almost immediately diagnosed with schizophrenia. My tone would be far more harsh if he wasn't. I also know that since he attacked a government official, the legal consequences become even more serious for him. But again, my stance is that he was not in his own mind and that's that - regardless of the severity of the crime.

I want to say most mentally ill people get a pass whether we agree with it or not. It's just this is such a high-profile case it garners more media attention and thus, more delicacy. By a pass, I mean more leniency - not getting away scott-free. The way an adolescent is treated vs. an adult, for example. I mantain I do not wish him death, or life in a prison of rapists and murderers. Years in a psych ward? Maybe. Close monitoring of meds for the rest of his life? Definately. Weekly evaluations on release etc. etc.

[SpiritWarrior]

Originally Posted by Cerek I agree the drunk driving comparison isn't the best, but it was the closest I could think of at the time. There is no cure for alcoholism, other than abstaining from alcohol completely. The alcoholic knows if they take even one drink, it might be impossible for them to stop and they will end up drunk. So they have to simply avoid alcohol at all costs to ensure they don't become a threat to themselves or others (especially behind the wheel).

Well, we're into addiction now. Alcoholic or not, you know better than to drive drunk. An alchoholic has more demons to contend with. But your average person is commonly found drunk behind the wheel.

Schizophrenics are similar, except they have to take their medicine (rather than abstaining from something) to maintain their control. Unfortunately, many of them have a tendency to stop taking their meds once they fell "normal" again. So it requires outside supervision to ensure they stay on their meds all the time.

This is part of the delusive state. If a schizophrenic has nobody looking after them, the government has to appoint someone to come provide.

As for the "gamebreaker", I can only agree with half of it. Loughner had never been on meds before but I don't agree that he did not know he needed to be on meds. He had been told more than once he should seek psychiatric help and he chose not to. That is not lack of knowledge, that is denial. I understand Loughner didn't think he needed help, but that doesn't change the fact he had been told he should seek it. So wasn't completely unaware of his condition.

It's hard to imagine for us who are not plagued by delusions and hallucinations. Sometimes the "voices" are not audible voices per se, but actual deluded emotions. Contentment, bliss etc. I cannot hold him responsible for self-diagnosis or for seeking diagnosis. Usually, schizophrenics are brought by their family members for evaluation, because they have observed disturbing patterns in the behavior of that person. Oftentimes they break laws before a psychologist evaluates them, like acting nuts in public and frightening people, or yelling obscenities in a store etc. They're arrested and evaluated by the justice system. When they are found to be mentally ill, they are usually given a complete pass on petty crimes that a normal person would not be afforded. Then the family are informed of diagnoses and some avenues for help are recommended.

Of course, the college couldn't make him seek psychiatric help, they could only say they wouldn't allow him back until he did so. Even so, that's a pretty strong message that others feel you should seek help. Unfortunately, Loughner's parents could not force him to seek help either, since he was an adult and could make his own decisions about his health care.

The parents could have done more. I'd describe his symptoms to a psych and ask them what they think. I'd then videotape him, record him, document his behaviors and bring it back to a shrink for an opinion. I would closely monitor him. Then call the cops and say I am concerned about these videos he's making on Youtube coupled with his erratic behavior, and tell them I am worried he will harm himself or others. I'd do this because I am an attentive parent. I'd be all over his personal life because a psychologist suggested his symptoms might be schizo. And i'd forgive myself because I know in the end this is for his own good. After all, he is my son. If I don't do it, who will?

So I disagree that Loughner "slipped" through the cracks. Rather, he made the choice to slide (or jump) between the cracks on his own.

As you can see, I completely disagree here.

Also, comparing his condition to other schizophrenics is not completely accurate either. As you know, cases differ from one individual to another. Only the more serious cases experience the auditory hallucinations (voices in their head) that lead to commit violent acts against themselves or others. Also, several schizophrenics exhibit negative symptoms (lack of regular activity) rather than positive symptoms (addition of new activities). Those that exhibit negative symptoms rarely present a danger to anyone else because they just withdraw into themselves. Others exhibit various positive symptoms that add to their behavior. In Loughner's case, these included the auditory hallucinations, feelings of paranoia and conspiracy, etc. While these led to his actions on the day of the shooting, not all schizophrenics experience these symptoms or reach that level that leads them to act against themselves or others.

Hmm. This condition is characterized by hallucinations of some shape or form. Sometimes they are audio, sometimes visual. Some are emotional, like I mentioned above.

Some who hear voices are non-violent. Some who do not hear voices are violent. Some who are non-violent can become violent if you push them. Much like normal people. The majority of schizophrenics will hear actual audio voices at some point. Almost all of them will have delusions. Anyone who does not, more likely has a schizoid-like disorder IMO, but not actual schizophrenia. But then on the other side, you can have a psychotic break for a week and experience these symptoms without ever having schizophrenia. yes, it's tricky.

So, while RTB's ex might have the potential to reach that level, the fact that she has NOT exhibited symptoms to that degree makes her a safer risk to be free in society. Since Loughner has exhibited the worst case scenario regarding his symptoms and the actions they can lead to, there is simply no way he can be allowed to roam free in society without an absolute assurance he will stay on his medication and never repeat those actions. And, with the propensity of people like Loughner to discontinue their meds, the only way to give that absolute assurance is through forced monitoring, such as in a mental institute or prison.

Even life-sentencing does not equal life. Murderers, rapists and thugs are all let out at some point. They could easily do that again - but the law don't even seem to think they should be locked up as long as they live. If they did they wouldn't release them. There are other ways to ensure he is medicated. The same way an ankle-bracelet ensures someone under house-arrest does not leave.

Left to his own recognizance, there is just no way the defense lawyers or his doctors can prove Loughner would not dc his meds and eventually go on another killing spree.

Elderly and physically/mentally infirm people are assigned providers to come to their house if they require it, and administer their meds to them. That way you have someone there watching him take it every day. There are now machines that sick people step on in the morning, that take their vitals and send it off to their doctor via dial-up modem. If they do not do this, the doctors office is calling that day to see what's up. This is just for non-criminal needy people. Tighten it up a bit, throw in some weekly evals and therapy, and I am sure there are easier (not to mention less costly) ways to keep him good. In some ways, it might even be less work than a person with Alzheimers for example. Those people can wake up and the middle of the night and forget why they're here and leave. At least with schizoid meds they are all about sedation and calm (anti-psychotics and anti- anxiety/depression).

[robertthebard]

While a murder or rapist may indeed go out and do it again, they can be locked up again, and if they get 3 strikes, here at least, they won't get out again. They also don't get the free pass of a few months in a hospital with meds and then released back out into society with an "All better" stamp. Tax money wise, it is far cheaper to put him in an institution than to assign a nurse/doctor/whoever to administer his meds, and insure that he's actually taking them, either by injections, which will be 100% certain, or by frequent blood tests, to insure the levels of medication are up to where they are supposed to be to control his condition. From my own personal experience, they tend to believe the medication cures them, and go off of it.

This is what makes somebody that has already "gone off the deep end" and killed people so potentially dangerous. Once they've done it, they'll have an easier time doing it again. Only next time, it might be you, or a member of your family. This is why I would also push for my family member to be locked up. My brother, for example, has a 5 year old daughter. It would be ashame to let "He's family" be the reason she died. Disclaimer: my brother isn't a Schizophrenic, but if he were, and if he were dangerous, I'd push to keep him locked up.