Religion Type

[Yorick]

[quote]Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk:
[QB]

If people are allowed to go about stating that god most definitely exists, I am allowed to go about stating that there is no divine being. Stating that there “Is a god” may be considered insulting to those of no faith, think of that before you post Oh great master of flames.

Never did I say you can't say that.

State your own experience Dramnek. The issue I have (and others who stay away when you enter) is that you attack the mental processes, and the motives of those with faith.

I have never implied Athiests were stupid or emotionally inept as you have. That is the difference.

On the contrary I have a number of athiest friends with whom mutal respect exists.

Not everyone has to see the world as you do. You do however, seem to feel the need assert that unless one thinks as you do, they are defficient as a human being.

Oh great master of flames.

No, You are deliberately misinterpreting my statements. Once again your personal agenda shows through, can't you just admit you dislike me and leave it alone? Or will you continue to draw up spurious accusations?

There's no agenda. It's a pretty clear slap in the face. Reverse the statment to apply to you and let's see how offensive it is?

If someone says “I Know god doesn't exist because I have no personal experience of him”
That generally means
No matter what evidence & arguments there is to count against these walls of the mind they will not listen or even look at the evidence properly since the emotions connected with it cause a bottleneck.

dear me, you just can't lay off the personal attacks eh?

It's called a defense Dramnek, and wouldn't be necessary without an attack. You derided him, I praised him.

Oh master of Trolls

Originally posted by Epona: Dramnek - I haven't seen Yorick flame anyone. Perhaps you are trying to bait him into it? NOWHERE did he say that atheists cannot state their beliefs. He is allowed to discuss the matter as is anyone else.

Try looking at the topic he made wiv my name on it and numerous other occasions (for example the “let me change your post”), he could have settle that one, as this by P.M or e-mail, but no, he seemed to want to want to stir up the maximum amount of flamage by ensuring that as many people see it as possible.

[ 06-14-2002, 03:50 PM: Message edited by: Dramnek_Ulk ]

[Cloudbringer]

Originally posted by Leonis: Theism. If you've never experienced something, how can you know about it? On the other hand, if you know you've experienced it, how can anyone else deny you that? For example, the atmosphere of a huge, patriotic crowd at an international sporting event. If I've never been in the middle of it, I can't truely know what it's like. I can only hypothesise, imagine, theorise etc But I'll never really know until I'm there. This works for my experience of God too. I know I experience a relationship with The Creator, so I also know those who haven't, don't know about it. Regardless of what anyone else believes (and this is not a dig at other beliefs) one would have to remove my experiences to remove faith.

Got to agree with this one. [img]smile.gif[/img] I have a relationship with God so I have that assurance he's there. I do realize others don't but for me, he's real and present and a part of my life experiences. A part of my life. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk: [QB]By the same logic, you cannot say that Santa Claus does not exist. Yet people take it for granted that he does not.

It's ensuring you only state that which is quantifiable. There is little foundation to solidly declaring something doesn't exist because one hardly experiences anything of the universe in terms of time, space, sonic spectum or light reception.

I would be a fool to say certain high pitched or subsonic notes didn't exist simply because I could not hear them.

I see the EFFECT they have on a dog, or a wall.

That's the old "20,000 fanatics can't be wrong" argument. Once, most people believed that the earth was flat.

However the BIBLE states the earth as being round.

Besides, they believed that which they had not experienced. Not all "truth" is measured the same way. Some things are not physically measured, and are reliant on human statements. Historical facts, journalism without pictures. Testimonies of safety inspectors.

If 20,000 safety inspectors declared a plane safe you'd believe them right?

Originally posted by Yorick: Never did I say you can't say that. State your own experience Dramnek. The issue I have (and others who stay away when you enter) is that you attack the mental processes, and the motives of those with faith. I have never implied Athiests were stupid or emotionally inept as you have. That is the difference. On the contrary I have a number of athiest friends with whom mutal respect exists. Not everyone has to see the world as you do. You do however, seem to feel the need assert that unless one thinks as you do, they are defficient as a human being.

Nope, I did not imply at all, (indeed to suggest that I did is gross misinterpretation and as your previous post shows, you simply wish for the moderators to “eject” me)
I merely said that emotion effects their though process; this is a well-known fact,
That emotion can override reason.

Originally posted by Yorick: Oh great master of flames.

Physician heal thyself!
No one can quite match your twisting and rewording of posts to fit your own agenda I think.

Originally posted by Yorick: There's no agenda. It's a pretty clear slap in the face. Reverse the statment to apply to you and let's see how offensive it is? If someone says “I Know god doesn't exist because I have no personal experience of him” That generally means No matter what evidence & arguments there is to count against these walls of the mind they will not listen or even look at the evidence properly since the emotions connected with it cause a bottleneck.

No matter how you term it, taking my posts and twisting the words is the most blatant and obvious flame bait I have ever seen.

Originally posted by Yorick: It's called a defense Dramnek, and wouldn't be necessary without an attack. You derided him, I praised him.

I did not deride him, I did not mention him, you are attacking a straw man and you are simply using this to claim that I made a personal attack

Originally posted by Yorick: Oh master of Trolls

Physician heal thyself!

[Sir ReGiN]

I voted theism. It just feels like it's the closest "group" to my beliefs.

Oh and Yorick, lay off the personal assaults will ya?
At least handle it in a PM or something.

Originally posted by Yorick: It's ensuring you only state that which is quantifiable. There is little foundation to solidly declaring something doesn't exist because one hardly experiences anything of the universe in terms of time, space, sonic spectum or light reception. I would be a fool to say certain high pitched or subsonic notes didn't exist simply because I could not hear them. I see the EFFECT they have on a dog, or a wall.

We are prisoners of empiricism,
Until there is direct non-subjective evidence that is interpretable and verifiable by humans, it does not exist for all our purposes.
If I were to say that since we cannot prove that magic doesn’t exist, It must, people would laugh.
If I were to say that I will cause person A to die with my mighty magic, and they then died of a heart attack, that does not make magic exist.

If 20,000 safety inspectors declared a plane safe you'd believe them right

That’s a different matter entirely,
There is at least empirical proof for, and of verification of safety standards and of inspectors.

[ 06-14-2002, 04:15 PM: Message edited by: Dramnek_Ulk ]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk: No matter how you term it, taking my posts and twisting the words is the most blatant and obvious flame bait I have ever seen.

If the shoe is put on the other foot, and is found to hurt as well, I would say the shoe hurts wouldn't you?

If there was nothing wrong with the statement, reversing it so that it applys to you instead of Leonis, myself and Amber, shouldn't be a flamebait at all.

The problem is with your statement, not with my attempt to put you in my situation so you can understand WHY a post is offensive.

I rest my case.

[Talthyr Malkaviel]

Look Yorick and Dramnek, I have absolutely nothing against you two having a debate in this thread, but I am responsible, and I'm going to try and sort this out before the mods have to step in and lock this thread.

Right, for a start, I think a lot of this has arisen from some poor choices of words.
Yorick, I can understand if you don't like people making Christians out as emotional wrecks, as they are not, but to me it seems like that is not what he meant, it seemed to me that he was stating the fact that emotions can override things, and I'm not singling out Christians at all, that is a broad statement, because it affects all humans.
Also, I think on both sides some things were interpreted as insults when they most likely weren't, and you can both spend all day saying about how one's twisyting the other's words, it won't matter in the end if the topic get's locked, will it.
Dramnek, no, you did not deride him, and equally, as you made no mention of "him" he made no mention of atheists in a bad context.
That statement where he changed the words, that wasn't twisting your words, he was merely turning it round to show you a little apathy, and as you seemingly took offense to it, obviously he made a point- unless you're saying you were mocking offense.
Now if you two can't just hold a sensible debate, then fair enough, the mod's will come and lock yet another debate, so if you want to stop others from debating as well I'd strongly advise you just leave it, ok? [img]smile.gif[/img]
If it does continue on the same level, I'll alert the mods myself, no need to waste everyone else time, and I tyhink there was at least a little misinterpretation on both sides.

Originally posted by Yorick: The problem is with your statement, not with my attempt to put you in my situation so you can understand WHY a post is offensive. I rest my case.[/QB]

Nope,
Not the content of the post makes it flamebait,
But the fact that you did actually deliberately *change* and *Rewrite* my words to fit in with *your* own views and opinions,
The *action* of Taking someone’s post, and rewriting and/or changing it for your own purposes, is blatant and obvious flame bait.
But enough,
If you have any further problems, I suggest you take it to E-mail.