Treatment of prisoners (yep, those ones...)

[Nachtrafe]

quote:

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Originally posted by Micah Foehammer:
I've sat back patiently, followed this thread and tried to understand where everyone is coming from. So here is my two dollars on this:

to address the ORIGINAL thread, I totally disagree with all of you who think that the Al-Queda and Taliban prisoners are being mistreated at the Guantanamo Bay facilities. I have seen other "detention" facilities around the world up close (fortunately not as a detainee) and everything I have seen on the Gitmo facilities indicates that the prisoners are being treated as humanely as possible, and quite frankly, in better conditions than countries where some of the complaints are coming from (e.g Malaysia). Keep in mind that, according to some press reports, at least SOME of the detainees have vowed to kill their jailors. Please try to remember that. No prisoners have been beaten; none have been summarily executed; their health is looked after; there are fed, clothed and given access to the Koran. So where is the mistreatment people? WHERE???

Now, as to some of the other issues raised here. Please allow us our outrage and anger, if you would be so kind. We appreciate your sympathies over the deaths of 9/11 and the steps your governments are taking NOW to help combat terrorism, but remember that this was an attack on US soil. Not in Munich, Madrid, Amsterdam or Paris. Don't presume to tell us how we SHOULD feel. That's presumptive at best and insulting at worst. Many of us felt this tragedy very deeply. And if we feel like waving the flag a little right now, for God's sake just let us and don't carry on about it. Don't take it personally and try not to be offended by it. And if we want to wave the flag a little bit, well, just let us get it out of our systems. Sure, sometimes we take things to extremes, but my goodness, aren't you used to it by NOW - especially those of you who claim to understand the collective American psyche so well????

Someone posted this comment - "What most Americans don't seem to grasp is that the whole notion of hating a nation (or loving it for that matter) is just... illogical to most other countries." Oh really? History is full of counter examples - India / Pakistan; Iraq / Iran; most of the Middle East vs Israel - Turkey / Greece. Need any more examples? History is FULL of them. This is a country of over 300 million people (give or take a few million) and to presuppose that you understand what the collective populace of this country thinks is laughable. BTW, Loving a country blindly is not a uniquely American concept. I believe that the term for that is Chauvanism, and it was coined by a Frenchman. But for what it is worth, I personally believe that most American do not look on this as an US versus THEM (arab), but that is just my opinion - I don't feel that way and most of my friends don't either. But regardless, what is clear is that Bin Laden does think that way - he has taken his hatred of the US to an extreme, wrapped it in a package of religious fervor and dogma and tried to turn this into a Muslim/Arab against the USA. And worse still he makes no distinction between military and civilian targets. Tracking him down and capturing him and his murdering associates is no different than tracking down any other murderer. He may BELIEVE that his cause is just, but that gives him NO right to take innocent lives.

So, if you want to sit back and presume to judge our motives, our actions, our feelings, you are entitled to do so. As the forum rules stae, you don't have to agree with someone, but you do have to respect their right to express an opinion. So go ahead and flame us if that's your style, presume that you understand us, judge us if that is your want. You can even hate us. I don't care, because for the most part it's not your country that is under attack now (with some exceptions here of course) .... I personally will rest easier knowing that those bastards in Guantanamo are behind bars.

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*APPLAUSE, WILD CHEERING, STANDING ON CHAIR AND WAVING MY AMERICAN FLAG!!!*

[John D Harris]

quote:

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Originally posted by Melusine:
In addition:
What most Americans don't seem to grasp is that the whole notion of hating a nation (or loving it for that matter) is just... illogical to most other countries. I regard people as individuals, no matter where they come from, and without meaning to offend, comments like "I'd rather see a thousand people of nationality X killed than a single American" are sickening me. You compare it to putting your family before all others, and that notion is indeed familiar to me but hey, you KNOW and LOVE your family - how can you know and love all the people living in your country? There are murderers and rapists between them, same as in any other country. I'm just saying, the fear that people in other countries hate America is illogical. We don't have this fanatical patriotism either, we don't think in terms of countries. No sensible European would hate all Americans - and so they don't.

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Miss Melusine Ma'am,
I think you hit the nail on the head, it's a cultural differance. I'll try to explain from one American's point of view. For most Americans it is illogical not to love one's country, or culture if you wish. We are a nation of mutts made up of differing cultures, tradtions, and nationalities all striving to make this idea "America" work. The thing that has held our union together is the comittment to make it work to the best of our ability. For most of us not to do our best is a slap in the face of our ancesters who paid an extremely high price for this Idea. In some cases that price was their lifes on the battlefield, induring hardships of travel to this country, surviving the trials and tribulations of starting a life in a country where the child of the lowest could become the President. It's an idea that says as long as I do not break the laws "no man can make me live a life I do not wish too", "I am the master of my fate" "I can become what I want to be if I try hard enough". We as Americans pass this on to our childern, as our parents did to us, because we want them to be better than us. And the only way it works is if we all pull together and make this idea work. If we fail to pull together it all comes crashing around our ears. In a sense we are a family, we have shared experiences, goals, and dreams. When one goes down we all loose something. For most of us there are fates worse then death. On 11 Sept. 2001 something precious was taken from us. On this board we have people that knew or know people that knew people who were killed. I have a sister-in-law that was staying in a hotel across the street from the twin towers, luckly She had an early meeting and was gone before 8 a.m. For almost 18 hours we had no idea of wether She was alive or dead. That same scene and worse was played out across this nation, tying us together, making us equal, family.

[Sir Taliesin]

quote:

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Originally posted by John D Harris:


Miss Melusine Ma'am,
I think you hit the nail on the head, it's a cultural differance. I'll try to explain from one American's point of view. For most Americans it is illogical not to love one's country, or culture if you wish. We are a nation of mutts made up of differing cultures, tradtions, and nationalities all striving to make this idea "America" work. The thing that has held our union together is the comittment to make it work to the best of our ability. For most of us not to do our best is a slap in the face of our ancesters who paid an extremely high price for this Idea. In some cases that price was their lifes on the battlefield, induring hardships of travel to this country, surviving the trials and tribulations of starting a life in a country where the child of the lowest could become the President. It's an idea that says as long as I do not break the laws "no man can make me live a life I do not wish too", "I am the master of my fate" "I can become what I want to be if I try hard enough". We as Americans pass this on to our childern, as our parents did to us, because we want them to be better than us. And the only way it works is if we all pull together and make this idea work. If we fail to pull together it all comes crashing around our ears. In a sense we are a family, we have shared experiences, goals, and dreams. When one goes down we all loose something. For most of us there are fates worse then death. On 11 Sept. 2001 something precious was taken from us. On this board we have people that knew or know people that knew people who were killed. I have a sister-in-law that was staying in a hotel across the street from the twin towers, luckly She had an early meeting and was gone before 8 a.m. For almost 18 hours we had no idea of wether She was alive or dead. That same scene and worse was played out across this nation, tying us together, making us equal, family.

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Yes, we are family! (Gives John D. a big bear hug!)We are also a bunch of mutts, very aggressive mutts. We have been since this country was first founded. Think about it. It took a lot of spunk and aggressiveness for our ancestors to pack up and leave the Old world and come here to carve out a niche. We are not much different than they were, now. doesn't matter where they came from... Italy, Ireland, India, Vietnam... They were and are still the same. Always looking to make they're lives and there familys lives better. That's one of the reasons we don't take guff off of others.

[Nachtrafe]

OK...first one to start singing 'We Are Family' dies. [img]graemlins/2gunfire.gif[/img]

Fellow mutt here. And damn proud of it.

As has been pointed out before, many people, primarily Europeans, have pointed to American national pride and called it Jingoism, and Nationalism. BS! As JDh so excellently pointed out...we're PROUD of who we are, and we aren't ashamed to say it. I mean...check my sig. Barry seemed to think that having national pride(and the sig I do) exempts me from impartiality, and, to an extent, regarding things like 9-11, he is absolutely right. But, just because I'm proud doesn't mean my brains leaked out of my ears. However, it does mean I support my (extended)family against all comers. There's an old saying. Me against my Brother, but my Brother and I against the world.

As to Mel's comment about her being sickened by people's 'a thousand people of nationality X are less important that one of my countrymen' attitude. Well, I happen to be one of those people. Sorry you dont like it, but there it is. My fellow Americans are my family, and I consider their lives a million times more important than some faceless persons living elsewhere. That's my opinion...crucify me for it if you want, but there it is. And I feel no shame for it.

[ 01-29-2002: Message edited by: Nachtrafe ]

[Melusine]

quote:

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Originally posted by Nachtrafe:
OK...first one to start singing 'We Are Family' dies. [img]graemlins/2gunfire.gif[/img]

Fellow mutt here. And damn proud of it.

As has been pointed out before, many people, primarily Europeans, have pointed to American national pride and called it Jingoism, and Nationalism. BS! As JDh so excellently pointed out...we're PROUD of who we are, and we aren't ashamed to say it. I mean...check my sig. Barry seemed to think that having national pride(and the sig I do) exempts me from impartiality, and, to an extent, regarding things like 9-11, he is absolutely right. But, just because I'm proud doesn't mean my brains leaked out of my ears. However, it does mean I support my (extended)family against all comers. There's an old saying. Me against my Brother, but my Brother and I against the world.

As to Mel's comment about her being sickened by people's 'a thousand people of nationality X are less important that one of my countrymen' attitude. Well, I happen to be one of those people. Sorry you dont like it, but there it is. My fellow Americans are my family, and I consider their lives a million times more important than some faceless persons living elsewhere. That's my opinion...crucify me for it if you want, but there it is. And I feel no shame for it.

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Wow, well I believe you. If this overreacting defensiveness is what *I* get, I can imagine what it would be like for someone who's actually CRITICISED your patriotism. Because you see, I did not. I'm doing my best to understand it, and I can to a certain point (that point would be where you started saying you'd rather see 1000 Europeans/Asians/Africans/Aussies killed rather than a single American. No offense at all, but yes, to me personally that's sickening.). But like I said, I understand a great deal of the patriotism you feel, and was addressing a different issue in my last few posts. However, in response I get rants like the above. You don't have to tell me all that, I know where you stand on it. I know you are proud of yourselves, but that doesn't explain why you react so strongly to people simply expressing an opinion. Hell, by your definition *I* would be an "America-basher"! Well, if you even knew me remotely you'd know that's laughable.

BTW Why are you getting all defensive here, "well if you want to flame me for my opinions that's your decision" (Micah) "crucify me for my opinions if you want" (nice choice of words there )?
I haven't posted ANYTHING in this thread so far to warrant that kind of response. Sheesh - it's such a cheap trick - it makes it look as if I WOULD actually flame you for expressing those sentiments, whereas in fact we've had a more or less civil discussion the entire thread. It's really very annoying to be yelled at "yeah yeah go ahead, flame me" when no one even intended to do so. I mean, I agree there may be SOME people America-bashing, but you know what most of them are doing? They're simply expressing an opinion which may entail disagreement with a SINGLE aspect of America (e.g. a particular decision of their government) and THEY are ranted at too. That's hardly fair.
I never asked for an explanation of why you're all so proud of your country, I've heard those explanations before and I can understand them for as far as I, as foreigner, possibly could. But when I see Yorick, who loves America to the point of moving there, post on another forum about your healthcare system, saying he dislikes it and immediately adding "I love the USA, I just don't like your healthcare system", that is just laughable in my eyes. Apparently even HE feels he needs to add some sort of disclaimer after admitting to dislike a SINGLE aspect of America, because APPARENTLY he expects people to assume he hates the country otherwise. Don't you see how ridiculous it is? Hell, you do a good job of criticising your own government, but if he criticises it, he feels the need to add that he in fact does love the country. Why is that? Because it does happen a LOT that people are called America-bashers just for disagreeing with a particular policy.

[norompanlasolas]

quote:

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Originally posted by Melusine:
I mean, I agree there may be SOME people America-bashing, but you know what most of them are doing? They're simply expressing an opinion which may entail disagreement with a SINGLE aspect of America (e.g. a particular decision of their government) and THEY are ranted at too. That's hardly fair.
I never asked for an explanation of why you're all so proud of your country, I've heard those explanations before and I can understand them for as far as I, as foreigner, possibly could. But when I see Yorick, who loves America to the point of moving there, post on another forum about your healthcare system, saying he dislikes it and immediately adding "I love the USA, I just don't like your healthcare system", that is just laughable in my eyes. Apparently even HE feels he needs to add some sort of disclaimer after admitting to dislike a SINGLE aspect of America, because APPARENTLY he expects people to assume he hates the country otherwise. Don't you see how ridiculous it is? Hell, you do a good job of criticising your own government, but if he criticises it, he feels the need to add that he in fact does love the country. Why is that? Because it does happen a LOT that people are called America-bashers just for disagreeing with a particular policy.

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i completely agree. i also dont see why the defensiveness, especially in this forum, where all the criticism has been absolutely civil and very polite! i think everybody here just voiced their opinions without flaming or fighting. i did see a couple of posts that were a little bit harder but nothing out of the ordinary. if this type of comments offends in any way then its best not to leave the us, because youll be seriously dissapointed and maybe even in trouble. and im not talking about going to paquistan or anything like that, im talking of europe or south america.

we are just discussing things over an internet forum. so all we can do is write, and wait for response. no other thing. no need to get angry because there is no way we are going to resolve this outside of it. i think its very similar to a library, no matter how angry you get and how much you want to shout... you cant. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Konfuzed and Zany]

OK I Edited this out and want to ask anyone who Quotes this to do the same
I posted this while not completly by full understanding (test week and crap)
Maybe this was a bit too provokin and looking at the post again (5 houres later) I realise this can be seen as Very provoking and insulting
sorry mel...
magik
anyone else
It was meant as an eyeopener
not as provoking
not as insulting...

-------------------------

There's a fine line between patriotism and Nationalism
Be Careful not to cross
If anyone Really objects
I'll remove this post
It was not meant to prevoke
But as an Eyeopener

[ 01-29-2002: Message edited by: Konfuzed and Zany ]

If anyone really needs to know What is said
PM me I'll see if you need to see this post

[ 01-29-2002: Message edited by: Konfuzed and Zany ]

[Melusine]

quote:

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1936
I Am german
And proud of it
We hare being attacked from the inside
I vote for preservation of my country

1939

I Am german
And proud of it
I trust my rulers
Poland is ours

1945

I am german
But what have I done?
If only...
i had opened my eyes...

There's a fine line between patriotism and Nationalism
Be Careful not to cross
If anyone Really objects
I'll remove this post
It was not meant to prevoke
But as an Eyeopener

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Rikard, please - you have negated all I said in my previous post now!! I said that the people in my country, in fact all over the world, don't feel collective anti-americanism, hating America just out of principle, as an automatic reaction, and I know you don't feel that way either. BUT by writing your post above, you will probably lead some of the more hot-headed Americans here (who are sometimes just as single-minded as you are, failing to try and understand the other side) to believe that you do, in fact, hate America.

I have never thought of American patriotism as something dangerous, at least not more so than any other emotion. All emotions are dangerous when taken to excess but I don't think there is something wrong with national pride an sich. We just don't understand it because we have different cultures, but we can at least TRY and understand each other. Your post, although I KNOW you meant well by it, DOES compare American patriotism to the feelings of the Germans during Hitler's ascencion to power. That is WAY out of line, Rikard. Sorry, but there is nothing to be compared to that, it is insulting, and inaccurate to boot. YES, there are some Americans whose patriotism IS jingoism, but so are there Dutch racists who wish to see all immigrants removed from our country.

What happened in Germany is not to be compared with anything else, and there is a BIG difference between that and the current situation in the USA. Americans are so critical of their government, even though it may not always show. There is no need to fear that their patriotism will blind them in such a way that they will no longer doubt a single word their "leader" says. Hell, just compare the public image of Bush to that of Hitler. Do you have any idea how much the American people criticises their presidents? They place their freedom above everything else, and so with every governmental decision, they are on his back like a watchdog. Not to say they disagree with everything the govnt. does, not at all, but they DO consider its decisions at length! Their patriotism doesn't apply to the leader of their country, like German nationalism did for the most part, it applies to the people in it! It really is a comparison you shouldn't make lightly, Rikard - I know you did not mean to, but you probably insulted a lot of people by it. Sometimes it's healthy to look past your own righteous ideals and at least try and understand the other side.

Like I said, *I* don't understand patriotism either when it leads people to feel the lives of their countrymen are worth more than the life of any other human being. I find it an affront to humanity to assume you can measure the worth of a (wo)man's life simply by the place he/she was born. BUT almost all Americans I know have never taken their patriotism quite so far. THEY take pride in their nation without meaning disparagement to other countries. What is wrong with that? I for one am willing to accept there are cultural differences between all countries, and therefore, objectively, I can understand the pride Americans take in their country. Like you feel proud when a friend of family member accomplishes something, so they feel proud of their nation as a whole. Let them! It's not more dangerous than any other emotion, unless it is without measure.

[ 01-29-2002: Message edited by: Melusine ]

quote:

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Originally posted by norompanlasolas:


i completely agree. i also dont see why the defensiveness, especially in this forum, where all the criticism has been absolutely civil and very polite! i think everybody here just voiced their opinions without flaming or fighting. i did see a couple of posts that were a little bit harder but nothing out of the ordinary. if this type of comments offends in any way then its best not to leave the us, because youll be seriously dissapointed and maybe even in trouble. and im not talking about going to paquistan or anything like that, im talking of europe or south america.

we are just discussing things over an internet forum. so all we can do is write, and wait for response. no other thing. no need to get angry because there is no way we are going to resolve this outside of it. i think its very similar to a library, no matter how angry you get and how much you want to shout... you cant. [img]smile.gif[/img]

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Mayhap we are sick unto death of whiney pacifistic idiots who take a media story based on sensationalism and absolutley no facts as the gods honest true fact.....(now Im not pointing fingers but if the shoe fits.....) In the end I hope they just put a bullet into each them and that will be the end of the whole subject....except for the Brittish ones whom I hear Tony Blair now wants back....I say give them to him..he can deal with the trash from his country. As for the USA I truely believe we have taken enough shit from every whiney little pissant around the world, I think its high time we let the lion roar (and quit letting the tail wag the dog) and let anyone who wants to come screw with us take their best shot. I would just have to say that the USA should first warn the "innocent civilians" of countries that do attempt to "take a shot" to be prepared to pay the ultimate price for allowing people in your nation to be the bastards that they want to be. Terrorism and nations who allow or openly support terrorism deserve exactly what they get (which should be total anihilation) If our so called "friends" do not see the issue of terrorism and the need for harsh response this way, then they will have to make a descision...do you stand with us? or against us. There is no middle ground. So far europe has taken the brunt of the terrorist attacks around the world..so it would appear to me that the current methods being employed by all the good nations accross the atlantic aren't doing jack to stop terrorism. The only way to stop it is to cut it off at the source, and right now that source is in the middle east. (Ireland and the IRA are a whole seperate issue)
When did men become afraid to be men and start letting efeminate little wussies tell us to "be nice to them, don't hurt them, they didnt know what they were doing was wrong" Each of the terrorists had the option to walk away at any point in time. They chose to try and destroy us, so now it is our turn to decide to destroy them.

Ok, Ive ranted enough. Note, my first paragraph was not pointed at any single individual, if you felt insulted by it, then obviously you are guilty of being who I did mean.

:::RANT MODE OFF:::

[Garnet FalconDance]

quote:

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Originally posted by norompanlasolas:


....... i also dont see why the defensiveness, especially in this forum, where all the criticism has been absolutely civil and very polite! i think everybody here just voiced their opinions without flaming or fighting. i did see a couple of posts that were a little bit harder but nothing out of the ordinary. if this type of comments offends in any way then its best not to leave the us, because youll be seriously dissapointed and maybe even in trouble. and im not talking about going to paquistan or anything like that, im talking of europe or south america.
.

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There have been a couple posts (not yours, Melusine [img]smile.gif[/img] ) which have been clear flamelets. I think this may be what has set more than a couple of us forum-ites from the US off.

As for Americans (who might be upset at comments such as have been voiced here) staying 'home' rather than facing other world citizen's on their home turf--I say bull. Granted, a few might face great difficulty due to their own ignorance and inability/unwillingness to remember that when in someone else's house you should abide by certain rules of conduct (like not deliberately insulting your host's culture, country, family or religion). But for the most part, there wouldn't be a problem.

For example, I was in the US Navy in the 80s. I lived in Italy for three years and travelled onboard a ship to France, Greece, Sicily, Spain (missed the Beirut trip as well as the Egypt trip, tho ). I did 98 % of my shopping at local markets, used public transportation, even eventually began raising my oldest son there. I faced no trouble once the host ppl (in whichever country) learned that I was willing to be part of the community. You see, *they* had expected ALL Americans to be like the ones in the tv show Dallas--brash, dishonest, arrogant, self-righteous, deceitful (this was all they had to judge by in the small towns I frequented/lived in). Because of my own avid interest in culture and history (which everyone does not share, I know) I already knew a great deal of their past but was ignorant of their *present*. I went to no special great lengths to fit in--I simply went about my daily life mindful of my neighbors. *They* were the ones with the problem which quickly cleared up when they realized that not all Anmericans were a certain way.

The only problem I ever encountered was in France. No matter where I went, I was confronted by an arrogance that transcended belief in some instances. I realized that surely not *all* Frenchmen are such, but it did rather spoil the experience and jade me a bit on ever going back.

Everyone brings to the table their own experiences, biases, and beliefs. The key to getting along is to find the common ground. I found that if I made the effort to not be the 'typical' American and simply speak louder when the Italians didn't understand English (does volume really affect lingual knowledge?) and to try and use rudimentary Italian, then they in turn tried to learn some English. We ended up creating a new language, I think, in some situations! [img]smile.gif[/img]

Now maybe I'm just an exception to the brash, flag-waving rebel Yank. But I don't think so. I freely and loudly criticise my governemnt policies at times, local and federal. I rail at the injustice of giving so many countries financial and food aid when in the US children go to bed hungry every night and so many of the 'working poor' are homeless. BUT I am also fiercely proud of my country and its achievements--all in a relative blink of time compared to what most other countries have had with which to shine. I willingly pledged to defend this land against all enemies, real or perceived, and would do so again. If this is considered arrogant or vain, then so be it. The idea that a few take us to task for actively taking pride in ourselves, warts and all, and trying to watch over our world neighbors to me is unfathomable.

Perhaps I got off topic but such is how these things go. If you truly cannot understand why we get defensive, then I do not know how to better explain these things. They are not new concepts, but perhaps they seem new to those who might not give them thought.